Please go into lots of detail - some of us are taking notes!
So, it’s not just theoretical for me. I left the US earlier this year and moved to Iceland. Planning started almost a year before that. It is hard for Americans to move to a lot of European countries, and Iceland isn’t an exception.
I hired an immigration attorney in Iceland to help make sure I did everything correctly. That cost about $10k as a retainer. It was worth every penny. If you’re taking notes, that’s pretty much the only one you need. Every country has different rules and laws regarding Americans moving to their country. And just like in America, if you have an issue with the law, you need to hire an attorney. They will help you understand every relevant law that exists that applies to you that may very well not be available in English. Hire a local expert.
I’m not very young, so I paid to move my stuff here. I also paid to move my electric vehicle because gas costs the equivalent of about $10 per gallon, plus there are some serious CO2 taxes here. That cost about another $20k. About two thirds moving the stuff, and one third moving the car.
In retrospect, moving the stuff was a good idea. I have lots of things that are just incredibly hard to get here, or take forever to get if you want them. And I saved enough money to be worth it. If you look at something like a KitchenAid mixer, it costs the equivalent of $1k here. If I sold my old one for used price and bought a new one here, I’d lose most of a thousand bucks. So you only need to do that a few times to make moving your stuff worth it.
I also saved money on importing my car over just buying a new one, but it was such a fucking hassle that if I were to do it again, I’d have just bought one here. I didn’t save enough to make it worth it.
I’m not sure how useful my experience will be now. When I started talking to my immigration attorney, I explained that it seemed likely to me that after trump was reelected that Americans were going to panic and rush for the exits. I felt that it was likely that the countries would respond by doing exactly what America does: freak out about having too many immigrants and change the rules to make it harder to get in.
Based on a recent conversation with my attorney, it seems that I was right. The rules have changed enough that the path that we used for residency has now been more more seriously restricted. The attorney’s office was inundated with requests from Americans and they were working 12+ hour days for a few months just trying to respond to all the requests.
I know some folks have strong feelings that people should stay and fight. But I feel like we have fought the good fight for a long time. That went all the way from starting non-profits, to being involved locally, and all the way to running for public office. I’m not interested in identifying myself too much, but I will say that that the person we lost that election to was openly known to have been fired previously for having embezzled money, but voters didn’t care because they got to vote for team ® in our red state.
So from my perspective, there is a cancer that is eating America. I’ve tried hard to remove it. I’ve tried hard to treat it. Ultimately, it seems to have metastisized to the point that it is incurable. You can either keep up with the radiation and chemo and be miserable until you die, or you can stop treatment and do your best to enjoy the time that is left.
For me, moving to Iceland is my version of stopping treatment to enjoy what life I have left. And if you want to fight to the bitter end, or if you want to search for a better life in another country, I wish each and every one of you the very best on your journey.
I’m glad you had the means to make it out.
The vast majority of Americans, sadly, do not.
American here. Can confirm; do not have $30,000. I just managed to scrounge up $5500 for the minimum possible downpayment on a house in northern Maine; the bluest, closest to Canada place, where people like to mind their own business and not fuck with anyone else for no reason. The Canadian escape route is real, though.
I do hear good things about Portugal. I was thinking Spain, but they seem to be having their own issues right now. This timeline is definitely off the rails.
There were some very fucked up things happening in our very red state, both in general and to us in particular. We had considered something similar, like moving to Maine or Vermont. These things happened just at the right time in 2024 that it was obvious that trump was going to win, but we still had time to plan to get out before he did.
We figured if we were going to go through the hassle of moving far enough away that any friends or family were going to fly to come vist us, that just moving to a blue state wasn’t good enough. We figured that when trump was reelected that even blue states wouldn’t be safe enough.
And believe me, I am well aware of how fortunate I am, because I was not always so fortunate. I realize that not everyone can do it. There were a couple of women married to each other that lived near us that were scared as hell, but they couldn’t afford to move to any of the places they were researching.
do
Even if a Democrat got reelected the bbb ensures that it makes it look like the DEms are at fault considered the cuts will be in act after the elections, and then you have the D being complicit to the whole takeover by the GOp as well
I researched Canada thoroughly, and I think I even (used to, before trump’s shenanigans) qualify for expedited citizenship. I also work remotely, for a global company, and will just keep my job. Unfortunately there were just too many costs involved, and I couldn’t foot the bill. It sucks, because you get a lot more house for a lot fewer dollars up there. I haven’t given up though. But it’s at least a year or two down the road.
Canadas housing situation is worse than the US I thought, at least in the places most people live.
I can’t really speak to that. I can only speak to the fact that the houses I was looking at were what I would consider a very good value for the money, at least compared to what you can get in the US these days.
I know some folks have strong feelings that people should stay and fight
As someone who thinks that. Sounds like you already fought your fight. And if you already tried it’s fair enough to move on.
Thanks. I care a lot about liberty and freedom. I think they come with duty and responsibility. Even though we are anonymous strangers on the internet, I want you to know that I respect everyone who stays and fights either because they cant leave or they choose not to. I hope you all win. I can still vote in federal elections, and I will continue to do so.
Já maður, Bandaríkin sökka velkominn til landsins.
Takk fyrir.
Bombandi, já maður! Velkomin/n!
Má ég spyrja: Hvers vegna Ísland? Hvernig gengur að læra tungumálið? Hvernig gengur að finna vinnu? Nærðu að vingast við fólk?
(Feel free to respond in English, it’s a bitch of a language to learn)
Ok, without cheating, I can read:
_____, yeah man! Welcome.
May I ask, why Iceland? How goes learning the language? How goes finding work? Something something with people?
So, Iceland is rated top 5 in pretty much every happiness or quality of life rating there is. They are still focused on freedom and education of people, so hopefully the descent into fascism is much further away. Also, I have some allergies that are causing other problems, so moving to a place with many months of no pollen was a good thing for me. That and the northern lights make the winter a positive for me, not a negative.
Learning the language is hard, as you say. I’ve been very lucky to move to a place and make friends with a lot of people who are helping me learn a lot. They have patience with me and repeat things slowly. I try to pick up a few words a day. I am maybe at the level of a toddler. I can pick out enough words and read body language well enough to get the context, but I can’t really make sentences well. And all of the people helping me learn is a double edged sword. They don’t want to act like talking to a toddler all day, so we end up speaking English a lot.
The work thing is turning out pretty ok. I might be able to get a bit of consulting gig going, or I may look for a remote job in Europe. Maybe both. I’m very fortunate to have money enough to pay cash for a decent house and have money enough to live off of for a few years once I don’t have rent to pay, so that hasn’t been as much of a priority for me. This has been more of a vacation for a bit.
So I cheated to find out the last question: Do I manage to make friends with people? Yes! This has been the biggest surprise. Most sources that we read on the internet told us that as a foreigner, wed always be on the outsiders. The perspective that we read is that everyone is everyone’s frændi, and we’re just always going to be on the outside. Perhaps we got very lucky, but it seems that we’ve found a way to become a part of the local community. It’s a little village in the north, so it’s perhaps better to make friends than in the capitol. They mostly seem to be happy to see people actually moving in instead of out.
Æðislegt! Gaman að heyra!
Yeah the friend thing is always tricky but if you’re open (as you clearly are) there’s always a community to be found with some tenacity!
Glad to have you 🤘
For anyone who’s thinking UK, I’d advise not - we’re about 4-5 years behind you in terms of imminent fascism and whilst there’s still technically a chance to avert it, its very unlikely - especially since Starmer is being even more awful than the Tories.
Just to add: The xenophobic riot last year…
Especially a bad idea if you are Muslim, Arab, or just look “Middle-Eastern”.
Or if you’re transgender (it’s called “TERF Island” for a reason)
Also, God, the weather
The weather is the main reason I’d want to go there. I prefer dreary.
UK was formerly on my shortlist but was removed a few years ago.
Vote for Ed Davie if you get the chance.
I went to Norway. Big recommend. That said, I refuse to call myself an expat or use the term expatriate. I am an immigrant. I think it is weird that white westerners get a special word and everybody else are filthy immigrants.
It’s semantics but the difference between expat and immigrants is an expat intends to return to their home country some day, where an immigrant does not.
it’s racism
if a westerner works with plans to return they are called expat, if it’s a non western, they are called migrants labour or foreign workers and are treated like shit.
they dont like to be called immigrants, because then they would have to be labeled like the “brown people” they say have hawking over.
Yes, but connotatively it is just a marker of privilege. Especially here, since what we’re talking about is immigration, not temporary work.
Canadian here. I’ll welcome anyone who voted against Trump.
Those who voted for Trump or didn’t vote at all can die in a ditch.
Thank you for that. For me, if I make a big move, especially out of country, I gotta go somewhere warm. I live in the mountains of WV and last winter nearly ended my life, for real. I was just talking this through with a friend- is it better to flee or stand our ground against the fascists?
Non-murican - strongly feel preference should be given to genuine refugees fleeing war, famine etc where they have absolutely no ability to influence their fate other than escape. The US is a failed democracy but the people there have barely begun to challenge their government compared to what we have seen elsewhere in the world. And there is still refuge available in blue states. US citizens need to stand up and fight. Then if they fail, only then do they get to go in the queue with the genuine humanitarian refugees. I don’t like queue jumpers. Sorry but impingement on your civil liberties doesn’t compare with families in war torn parts of the world living in fear fear of having their limbs blown off every night.
Ofcourse business around the world would like to cherry pick talent for in demand jobs. They prefer not to invest in developing local people when they can import experienced talent for less. So people with in demand skills will get in that way, not as refugees.
I don’t mean to naysay but this isn’t reduced civil rights people are fleeing. The US is building concentration camps and has recently approved expanding their budget for ICE (originally immigration enforcement, now a gestapo analogue) such that it is larger than most world militaries.
This is naziism people are fleeing. This is death camps people are fleeing.
And those people fleeing genuine threat should be welcomed as refugees. American voting citizens however, need to get their assess out on the streets and actually start challenging the police, ICE and government, instead of fleeing what they created.
I’m German and as far as I’m concerned the people who want to flee the current US administration are exactly the type of people you want to welcome with open arms.
As a trans woman I might need somewhere to go and I desperately hope that when that day comes someone like you is in charge if deciding if I get to stay.
the ones that cant stop sucking off trump, arent even leaving usa anyways(trump supporters/liberterians), they are too inside thier bubble. scientists and mds and engineers have much more options than people with non-graduate degrees unfortunately.
Are you specifically talking about north americans of european descent? As if Germany isn’t dipping right into their pre WW2 culture with Merz as chancellor and AfD getting more votes each year 🤡
Deutschland den Deutsche, Ausländer Raus
Ireland. I’m a firm believer that if you move to a region that speaks a different language, you need to make a genuine effort to learn that language. After having 3 years of foreign language (including a year of Gaelic when I lived in Ireland as a child for a year), I know it’s not my thing, so an English speaking country is a requirement for me. Ireland is gorgeous, and still in the EU. Scotland would also be top of the list if they split from the UK and joined the EU.
We’re thinking Scotland. There’s some real nice homes for reasonable prices. My wife’s already a UK citizen so that helps.
Not much, though - I’m English, and we worked out it would cost £20k for the various visas. On top of that, you need to pay an NHS premium, even though you would already be paying for it through the usual national insurance deduction from your salary. It will also take 10 years before they are a citizen.
We decided to stay here (Germany). Less costs and, sadly, better health care.
Non-American here. All Americans, except MAGA muricans, are welcome.
Probably Finland, or another Nordic country. Idk, I just like the cold and the woods and figure those oughtta fit the bill
The kind of american that usually comes to Mexico is very nice, very welcome. Maybe the exceptions are the very loud and self absorbed ones that go to resort locations and act like they’re better than everyone there.
As long as people want to integrate and cooperate they are more than welcome.
Now, the sad part is the gentrification that comes with a lot of people moving and outpaying rent vs the locals. Now the average cost of living in Mexico city is about 50% higher than the average salary, and about 100% higher than the median salary. Another very negative thing is that now a lot of locals have to communicate in english because American people will come and not learn spanish over multiple years living here. There are zones where everything is in english now. It’s okay speaking english, it’s not okay expecting english from everyone.
So a few pointers:
- Integrate, pay taxes, consume locally
- Try and move into already gentrified places, avoid displacing more people
- Push for social policy, increased affordable living spaces, invest in the country where you move into to improve the locals’ life
Be friendly, but that’s always
La ciudad de México is what I’ve been thinking of. seems like a fabulous place. doubt I could take the heat and I’m more likely to end up in Asia, but Mexico City and Toronto are top contenders
Luckily mexico city is not actually that hot, quite humid though
yeah I’d prefer -30 over +30 and humid
Now the good thing with humidity is that refrigeration works wonders, and in Mexico Mini Splits are super cheap, as is electricity
Don’t come to Ireland. I’ve lived in the US for nearly two decades, made lots of friends and even helped some to immigrate here. The harsh reality is, however, that we’re going through a really bad housing crisis, with our own homeless numbers growing every month, and house prices and rents exploding (a recent statistic showed that our growth in rents is four times the EU average). So, please, for our sake and yours, try a different country.
I’ve always thought there’s two kinds of Americans; the ones who have a passport and the ones who don’t.
If they’re willing to explore the world and recognise the US isn’t the whole universe I find them to be totally fine.
Whether or not someone has a passport is almost entirely based on the amount of wealth that person or their family has.
Where I grew up, almost nobody traveled abroad because nobody could afford it. Or at most, back in the day they would drive to Canada because you could cross without a passport.
For some reason getting a passport is like $200, plus whatever it takes to get the required supporting documents (eg: birth certificate, the photo). That’s not much by many metrics, but a lot of people in the US just don’t have $200 to spend.
In 2016 there were tens of million of Americans who couldn’t absorb a sudden $400 expense without going further into debt.
That number’s probably grown significantly since.
It’s also convoluted process too. If you never had passport or haven’t renewed in like 15+years you have to reapply, and then set up a whole appointment, most are booked months it not longer in advanced and only specific location USPS in your area. The scientists currently emigrating to Europe are already well off individuals( that’s why MDS and scientists are considered well off peoples degrees), certainly not poor
Drop in the bucket compared to the cost of travel. Your point still stands though.
There are also Americans who had a passport of a different country before they naturalized
Germany. I might be able to claim ancestry rights. Ironic that my great grandmother fled fascism in Germany but I’d flee America to return to the motherland.
You shouldn’t say that “motherland” phrase so loud. Nobody cares, but it makes you one of those Muricans we try to avoid.
Nobody here cares about ancestry like americans do.
Your great grandma came from Germany. Was your grandma a german citizen? Was your mother a german citizen? No? You are not intitled to german citizenship anymore. You’re a full blown american with a great grandma that migrated to the USA. I’m sorry to blow your bubble, that ship has left the harbor.
Ok sure. Sorry I didn’t know ‘motherland’ was a negative phrase in Germany. I will not use it. My grandmother and mother were not German just great grandmother.
Yeah… those fucking moronic assholes that forced your great grandmother to flee to survive loved expressions like Lebensraum, Rasserein, Bluterbe, Mutterland, Vaterland or Unwertes Leben…
And we germans laugh about that Murican obsession with “I’m German, because my great grandmother was…” you can get german citizenship ius sanguinis (by blood … [as direct desendent])" and since 2000 also by ius soli (by place of birth). There’s a joke about “Russlanddeutsche” (Russian germans) that goes like: Ivan now has german passport, he could give proof his great great great great grandfather had a german shepherd back in 1792.
Those people “coming back” are the decendents of people migrating to russia back in 1764 on their own free will.
So, my personal tip. Just say you want to leave the US because that country is heading for a fall. I can speak a bit german because my great grandma was from [insert city/village/state here]. I hope this will help me learn to speak fluently fast.
And you’re welcome.
Thanks for the constructive feedback instead of just assuming I was a bad person. I appreciate it.
My pleasure.
You and grew up in completely different cultures, even if both are considered “western”. We both are a product of how we grew up.
If someone would accuse me, as a german, of stareing, I’d be baffled, because for us it is normal not to look away after a split second. We also like to say things directly and don’t like waste time with small talk and chit chat in some situations. Many think this makes us cold.
And… you obviously know about the darkest parts of german history. I was born 24 years after the third Reich was defeated and 80 years later this time still haunts this country. That’s why we sometimes react a bit “twitchy” if people use expressions that either were used by the fascists or sound like they would have liked them. I hope you understand my first reaction even better now.
Yes I know how sensitive a subject it is.
Also, I too do not like small talk or mindless chit chat. If I talk, it is is in depth and with a passion about the topic.
You know the stereotypes about germans, no humor, stare at you, love their rules and laws, cold and pedantic, wait for the green light on a pedestrian crossing at 3 in the morning, but go pedal to the metal the moment their Porsche/Benz/BMW enters the Autobahn… and we drink beer all day and eat Sauerkraut.
:)
Seriously, the only Sauerkraut I really like is the batch my Dad makes every year in autumn and I don’t drink beer.
That’s not how it works hun. You’d have to go through the regular process of becoming a citizen by immigration.
Ancestry rights≠automatic citizenship and the person you’re responding to didn’t make that claim.
Yeah, it’s just one of the avenues. I could also just get a job there as I’m in tech, I’m not quite fluent in German yet especially when it comes to tech jargon. But I’m getting there.
Depending on your field tech jargon is probably all english even in Germany.
It is according to some Dutch friends in the Netherlands.
Software engineering. There is a lot of cognates yeah
Cognates? Mate, unless you work for some company stuck in the 60s the entire tech jargon is english, it’s the exact same words.
Californian - i want us, oregon, and washington to join canada.
It would be a dream if CANZUK happened, then it was joined by California and Cascadia. We could call it CACACANZUK.
That said, you would already be a powerful nation without joining anyone else. Don’t wait for us to get organised.
I feel like if CA were to leave the US it would join Mexico, not Canada
Rejoin
fuck no lol joining mexico is submitting yourself to the rule of cartels. Theyre super corrupt.
Mexico == cartels???
the cartels hold massive influence over the govt, straight up killing their legislators in significant numbers at times.
There is serious violence, but CA has law enforcement in place with experience dealing with the Cartels. The power they weild in Mexican Government would be outweighed by the 30% increase in population and the doubling of the size of the Mexican Economy.
Of course the violence that would be required to result in CA leaving the union might result in destruction of that economy. Hard to say.
GingTFO isn’t actually a huge problem for Americans. I’ve looked into it and the only reason I’m still here is that my wife refuses to leave and I love her too much to leave her. Dozens of countries will give Americans residency, although citizenship is usually a lot more difficult and/or takes years. There is usually a minimum income requirement, but you don’t have to be rich. I’ve seen it in the $1200-$2k/mo range in multiple places. Of course this has to be income you can still make while you’re in the new country, not a US job you’re going to give up. Makes it pretty sweet for “digital nomads” tho who can work remotely.
A few countries highly rated by expats are Costa Rica, Panama, Uruguay (esp good environment for LGBTQ+), and Thailand. Vietnam doesn’t even have a visa limit - technically it’s 3 or 5 years but all you have to do is go away for like 30 days. There are lots of others. If you want to get started google “Americans moving abroad”, there are tons of helpful videos and articles.
