• Rapidcreek@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    It’s worth recalling when support for the Chechen war was low, Putin initiated a campaign of apartment building bombings in 1999.

    Some chatter that there were around 8 shooters, and they walked into the hall and immediately shot 40-50, result might end up with over 100 killed. One of the shooters has allegedly been arrested, ISIS-K or Imarat Kavkaz would be under srict instructions NOT to be taken alive. There’s considerable dueling narratives right now

    No matter who is actually responsible - Putin will probably blame Ukraine

    It looks like US Intelligence warned of this attack in early March.

    People at the venue lost all phone and Internet connectivity right prior to the attack. Jamming was being used.

    The entire city of Moscow is now on lockdown.

    ISIS, through its outlet al-Amaq, just claimed responsibility for the terror attack in Moscow tonight.

    • Lewo@lemmy.world
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      People were posting videos while the attack was happening. Where are you getting this information about “jamming” from? Nearby traffic distribution nodes were likely overloaded which resulted in degraded performance of Telegram and VK services. This is something to be expected when thousands or even millions of people start sending messages all at once, trying to figure out what’s happening to their friends and family.

      • Rapidcreek@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        All the videos I’ve seen are CCTV which were distributed well after the fact. channel 12 from Russia reported the jamming. I’m aware of what a mobile network will do on overload since I used to design and deploy them. It doesn’t quite work that way.

        • Lewo@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Telegram channels such as Baza, Ostorozhno Novosti and Vazhnye Istorii were posting eyewitness statements and phone footage as early as 20:15 Moscow time and throughout the event. There was no jamming. Degraded performance was reported for Telegram and VK. Whether the issue was with the local access points or Telegram’s data centers is not clear.

            • summerof69@lemm.ee
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              8 months ago

              Again, what’s the source that the internet was jammed? I haven’t heard anyone mentioning that, including witnesses on the place.

              • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                I thought Internet was already under control of Moscow, but it’d be wild if it turned out it wasn’t all this time and Putin would never do something like this again, like those other times he did

            • Richard@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              But the burden of proof is on you. At this time, you are simply spreading an unfounded conspiracy theory.

        • summerof69@lemm.ee
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          8 months ago

          You didn’t answer the question.

          Where are you getting this information about “jamming” from?

          This is the first time I’m hearing this.

    • northendtrooper@lemmy.ca
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      8 months ago

      An excerpt from the article:

      In October 2002, Chechen militants took about 800 people hostage at a Moscow theater. Two days later, Russian special forces stormed the building and 129 hostages and 41 Chechen fighters died, most of them from effects of narcotic gas Russian forces use to subdue the attackers.

      • circuscritic@lemmy.ca
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        8 months ago

        Those are two separate events…

        The false flag apartment bombings were carried out by actual Russian security services - not Chechen assets, or militants.

        On an related unrelated note, some of Russian agents who took part were comically stupid. If you aren’t aware of the Sims vs SIM card mix-up, do yourself a favor and look it up.

        Edit: as pointed out below, the Sims vs SIM card was not part of the 1999 false flag operation, but a more recent one (2022). My bad.

        • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          The Sims comedy hour was a separate event from the other two, it was a 2022 attempt to frame Ukraine for terrorism.

          • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            I bet this is the first actual terrorist attack on Russia that was not perpetraded by Putin. I mean, even a clock and so on…

        • ours@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          They botched one of the apartment building bombings worse than “The Sims card” thing. They had announced one of the bombings before doing the actual bombing.

    • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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      8 months ago

      It’s worth recalling when support for the Chechen war was low, Putin initiated a campaign of apartment building bombings in 1999.

      That was the immediate memory. It’s interesting how much truth will be figured out in this current case.

      • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Thank god! Steets are safe again huh? Like those evil election protests, finally a curfew ended all that

    • Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      8 months ago

      You are wrong on a lot of counts here buddy. May want to take a Valium and leave the geopolitics alone.

      • Stamau123@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Such as? Did putin not bomb his own people in the 90s? Did America not warn about this next attack before it happened?

      • Rapidcreek@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        I did that on the fly and didn’t make a comment a day after. What counts am I wrong on? Most everything has proven to be true. Thanks for the drug recommendation, are you a doctor?

  • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    This is nuts. This better not be some bullshit to manufacture consent for war escalation.

    • thawed_caveman@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      A lot has been said about Call of Duty MWII, but if your theory is correct then we’ll have to say that, of all things, its plot was prescient. And i’m not ready for that

    • DarkThoughts@fedia.io
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      8 months ago

      I don’t think so. The US actually warned about imminent terror attacks by ISIS in Moscow a few weeks ago.

    • rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works
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      8 months ago

      From the article:

      The official said U.S. intelligence agencies had gathered information in recent weeks that the IS branch was planning an attack in Moscow. He said U.S. officials privately shared the intelligence earlier this month with Russian officials. The official was briefed on the matter but was not authorized to publicly discuss the intelligence information and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity.

      The Kremlin didn’t immediately blame anyone for the attack, but some Russian lawmakers were quick to accuse Ukraine and called for ramping up strikes. Hours before the attack, the Russian military l aunched (sic) a sweeping barrage on Ukraine’s power system, crippling the country’s biggest hydroelectric plant and other energy facilities and leaving more than a million people without electricity.

      Dmitry Medvedev, deputy head of Russia’s Security Council, said that if Ukraine involvement was proven, all those involved “must be tracked down and killed without mercy, including officials of the state that committed such outrage.”

      Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, denied Ukraine involvement.

    • whotookkarl@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Not seeing anything yet but it can be hard to get accurate news reporting from a country that kills subversive journalists and is in a war. I think most are assuming it’s either an internal or external paramilitary group related to the war in Ukraine, or domestic terrorists related to the recent elections, I think targeting a concert is more likely the latter but we’ll see which group takes responsibility if any.

        • NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Likely despite US intelligence warning about imminent terror attacks in Russia earlier this month.

        • no banana@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Maria Zacharova (Kremlin) seems to think the most important thing right now is that the whole world condemns the attack, which I find to be a kind of weird priority since the thing just happened and we have no fucking clue what is going on.

          • jonne@infosec.pub
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            8 months ago

            You can still condemn it even if you don’t know exactly who’s behind it.

            • no banana@lemmy.world
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              Absolutely! It wasn’t my intention to insinuate that you cannot. My point is that she was very quick to come out and demand it be done. Of course terror attacks should be condemned. All I’m saying is that the Kremlin has some weird priorities when there’s an ongoing attack. Almost like they’re trying to control the discussion and steer it towards something else.

            • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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              Yeah not an extemely useful propaganda plot device at all then. You’re not with the terrorists, are you? You better stand up and clap your hands and stomp your feet in sympathy.

          • avater@lemmy.world
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            Maria Zacharova (Kremlin) seems to think the most important thing right now is that the whole world condemns the attack

            nah I don’t condemn anything. Either it was some pro-ukranian group (fair, bring the war to russia!), or more likely, some covert op from the fsb so that this russian cunt in charge can order a new drafting…

            • Justin@lemmy.jlh.name
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              8 months ago

              It is never fair to murder civilians. I don’t blame Ukraine if there is terrorism and insurgency due to the occupation of eastern Ukraine, that’s firmly Putin’s fault. But that also doesn’t make it ok.

              • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                And suddenly here you are standing together in sympathetic unity with The Kremlins. It’s hard making people see propaganda when they have become so desensitized to it

                Let’s hope Putin will find some way to finally stop the forces of evil defiling his land after this.

              • avater@lemmy.world
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                gotta fuckin love reddit

                this is lemmy.

                ah yes, “bringing war to russia” now means shooting innocents, because responding to terrorism with even more terrorism works so well

                Yes innocents die in war, thats what happens. It’s cruel, it’s not fair but this can happen if you attack other countries, although I don’t believe that this is caused by ukranians…

      • Jaderick@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        The article mentions the US warned of an imminent attack last month and the Russian state dismissed it. Russia also has a history of utilizing false flag operations to start shit, so I’m leaning towards that atm (before more details come out)

        • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
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          Yea, but to stay in power all he has to do is rig the elections, so that theory doesn’t really make sense. I am not saying that a false flag attack is out of the question, but if it is a false flag, the reason for doing it is probably not to keep Putin in power.

      • FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        That and Kiev/Kyiv have been enlightening since this whole thing kicked off. I’ve got a couple Russian language textbooks but think it’s time to update to some Ukrainian

    • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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      8 months ago

      Russia is not against doing false flag terrorist operations. That is how Putin came to power.

    • jonne@infosec.pub
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      8 months ago

      This would have the opposite effect for Ukraine. It would cause Russians to actually rally around the flag and be more pro war. The Ukrainian strategy has been to just kill Russian combatants and hope they kill enough that Russians themselves start protesting the war on the home front.

    • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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      8 months ago

      US intelligence wanted them weeks ago about an impending attack

      Gunmen went in armed, met zero resistance, were busy for over an hour, no police ever showed up.

      IS claimed responsibility pretty much immediately.

      Putin ignored all that and obviously blamed Ukraine because of course.

      This is no false flag operation, Russia would never.

      • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Poor Russians, always the target of unprovoked attacks. How did the US know beforehand anyway? Super sus!

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    8 months ago

    The Islamic State group claimed responsibility for the attack in a statement posted on affiliated channels on social media. A U.S. intelligence official told The Associated Press that U.S. intelligence agencies had learned the group’s branch in Afghanistan was planning an attack in Moscow and shared the information with Russian officials.

    Respect to USA for trying.

    • WatTyler@lemmy.zip
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      8 months ago

      The problem is that, this helps Putin. If we assume he has no regard for human life, then this is a massive opportunity for him. He’s made the most out of opportunities like this one in the past.

      This attack on innocent lives is a profound tragedy as it is. I wish I could spend more time dwelling on the plight of the victims but my brain won’t stop panicking about all the ways Putin can exploit this situation to ruin even more lives.

      It’s why I couldn’t shake the idea that this might be a false flag operation. It’s why I can’t deny the prospect that perhaps Russian security services didn’t do all they could to stop this before it occurred.

      My thoughts to the victims and those close to them.

      • qaz@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        It’s why I couldn’t shake the idea that this might be a false flag operation. It’s why I can’t deny the prospect that perhaps Russian security services didn’t do all they could to stop this before it occurred.

        It makes him look weak, distracted, and unprepared. People might think his attention and army is spread too thin with the war in Ukraine.

        Seems like a really shitty false flag operation to me.

        • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          He’s once again the victim of evil foreign aggression, and even ISIS is fighting alongside Ukraine now, proving everyone is a terrorist except Putin, who 100% has done this exact thingmore than many times before.

      • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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        8 months ago

        Putin is already blaming Ukraine.

        US security services have notified Russia of an impending attack, they notified US citizens there to about large gatherings

        Gunmen went in calmly, shot at people for 1.5 hours without being stopped, then calmly walked back into a car and drove off.

        IS claimed responsibility immediately

        Russia claims it arrested the same gunmen in the car that was already identified and look at that, they went straight for the Ukraine border, an impossible to pass war zone. Uh huh…

        All of this clearly shows it was the Ukraine!

      • andxz@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        It wouldn’t exactly be the first time he’d do something like this, although if this is the case it’d be quite extreme even for him.

          • andxz@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            You’re not wrong, and he’s obviously using it to full effect either way, but it just boggles my mind a bit that they probably knew full well this’d happen and they let it, smack middle in Moscow of all places.

            It’s not exactly a good look no matter how much that demented fuck tries to spin it.

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      “Dear USA pliese not to disturb Russian false fleg operetion. It cost many rubles to setup.”

    • Richard@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Okay, but there’s no way to know whether that “intelligence official” is telling the truth.

      • cheeseandrice@lemm.ee
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        8 months ago

        Really, you don’t think the USSR invading Afghanistan before that plays any role?

          • Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            So the U.S gov (who no one was working and making decisions back then) should go back in time and do something else instead of trying to take the high road now, because they took the low road then. Got it.

            (Not trying to be snarky it’s just the logic here doesn’t add up other than ‘I want to be mad’)

  • NegativeLookBehind@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    My bet: Russian false flag operation allowing them to pin the attack on Ukraine and stir up anti Ukrainian sentiment.

    EDIT: My bet was likely wrong.

    • qaz@lemmy.world
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      What was that thing at 0:20? One of them dropped something and the other one picked it up.

      EDIT: 2nd last video is very graphic

    • DarkThoughts@fedia.io
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      8 months ago

      I kinda struggle to show empathy for this, after the last couple years of them doing & supporting this kind of shit in Ukraine.

        • ClamDrinker@lemmy.world
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          They said struggle - not that they couldn’t. Dont just attribute such a horrible thing based on your own reading. You can have all the empathy for the Russian people but no empathy for the Russian state. After all, the Russian state is also directly responsible for the continuous cold blooded murder of Ukrainian civilians. Not like they gave much warning on February 24th 2022, or in 2014.

        • DarkThoughts@fedia.io
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          Are you expecting me to tolerate the intolerant? No thanks. They don’t have any empathy towards Ukrainian civilians either. They rather encourage what is happening, be it torture, rape or murder and have imperialistic ambitions that stretch far beyond Ukraine, wanting to do the same to my country and others. So why should I care? If two scumbag factions murder each other then that’s a win win situation.

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              Russia holds almost 200 different ethnic groups (potentially less since they ethnic cleanse their own populations in the Ukrainian meat grinder), so no. I hold hatred towards a terrorist state.

                • DarkThoughts@fedia.io
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                  Tankies once again proving they live in an alternative reality where they can just spin everything to whatever suits their confirmation bias.

        • yesoutwater@lemm.ee
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          8 months ago

          Yaaa, let’s blame the sentiments of observers for killing Ukrainians, not the genocidal kgb agent and the country where 88% of the voters reelected him…

            • kautau@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              I can’t believe that there’s still people, who after seeing everything Putin has done, especially to interfere with other countries elections, think that their election was in any way valid

              • Tinidril@midwest.social
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                8 months ago

                I’m guessing that they just wanted to shit on Russian citizens. I doubt they actually believe the election was legitimate.

                • yesoutwater@lemm.ee
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                  If the election was illegitimate (you mean he really didn’t get 88% of the vote ?!?), then it sounds like its Putin shitting on Russian citizens. Not sure how my comment is derogatory either.

              • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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                It’s been invalid in over a century, and it didn’t exactly recover when Tsar Putin took the throne.

          • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
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            8 months ago

            and the country where 88% of the voters reelected him…

            I know many people who didn’t, a few I suspect and literally zero who would admit voting for him.

        • Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Considering statistically each one of them is going to take 10-12 Russians with them, not a sacrifice made in vain.

        • borari@sh.itjust.works
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          If you go on to any of the pro-Ukrainian telegram channels, Ukrainians are absolutely rejoicing over this. One posted a video of the fire taken by a car driving by on the highway and captioned it “З днем свинячого шашлику” lol.

    • TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      One of the most striking moments in a pretty forgettable series. D Day is also very good although more or less a copy of Saving Private Ryan

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      It could be. It certainly tracks with the separatists’ move into guerilla tactics later in the second Chechen war.

      Out of any time for them to start striking again, this would be it. Russia is stretched thin in manpower and supplies, and their attention is very focused on Ukraine and the West. Their ability to dump resources into the southern Caucus to tamp down a potential Chechen War #3 is definitely going to be limited. And coupled with the completion of Putin’s sham election, it sends a very strong message against Russia’s outward facade of “unity”.

      • Optional@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        What, is Kadyrov not a lapdog anymore? He would seem to be the first hurdle, not a later one. Of course maybe he’s dead or something, idk, i haven’t checked tiktok in a long time.

      • DarkThoughts@fedia.io
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        Why would they attack random civilians instead of pulling a Wagner move towards the Kreml? Russia already showed that they wouldn’t have much of a resistance to show for it.

        • qaz@lemmy.world
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          A terror attack requires a couple of guys with small arms. A move towards the Kremlin requires significantly more manpower and equipment.

    • Death_Equity@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      They might have beards, hard to tell from the footage I’ve seen.

      May be Islamic terrorism or a bad ol’ fashioned Russian false flag. I doubt Ukrainians or Ukrainian supporting people would do a random terror shooting, they like to be more targeted and the shooting was at random people. There was a foiled group of Islamic terrorists arrested earlier this month, maybe another group.

      We will have to see what Russia says.

      • pancakes@sh.itjust.works
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        Yeah, Ukraine hasn’t done anything civilian targeting attacks so i highly doubt it was them. They know how important optics are when it comes to getting international support.

        • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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          Well they targetted civilian targets (the refineries) but have not targetted civilians (i.e. people).

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            8 months ago

            The distinction is not between civilian targets and military targets, it is between “civilian objects” and “military objectives”. Targeting a civilian infrastructure such as refineries, and even civilian power stations can be considered valid military objectives if they make an effective contribution to military action or offer a definite military advantage. The refineries being hit by Ukraine definitely meet that definition.

            https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/when-are-attacks-civilian-infrastructure-war-crimes-2022-12-16/

            • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              Just pointing out that what Ukraine does not attack is civilians or in your nomeclature “civilian objects”, but unlike what might be understood from the post I was responding to (because it used “civilian” rather than “civilians”), it does attack civilian infrastructure (when it is a “military objective”, as you pointed out).

              Personally I think the attacks on Russian refineries should already been happenning for a long time and I find it’s a disgrace the limitations most European countries and the US placed on Ukranian use of the weapons they provided inside Russia. Strategically it’s ridiculous that Ukraine has had to suffer its infrastructure and its Economy being destroyed whilst Russia needed not at all worry about having it’s productive and economic infrastructure degraded: since Putin doesn’t seem to care at all about human lives, until Ukraine finally made their own weapons with range enough to hit Russian Economic Targets and started targetting Russian refineries, this invasion of his had been almost risk-free.

              • borari@sh.itjust.works
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                8 months ago

                Ah ok, I misinterpreted your post then. I thought you were insinuating that because refineries are civilian infrastructure Ukraine shouldn’t be targeting them. We’re in agreement here, don’t target actual civilians and slam as many drones as possible into refineries and any other valid targets within Russia.

  • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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    8 months ago

    And of course uncle Putin is saying it was Ukraine.

    US security services have notified Russia of an impending attack, they notified US citizens there to about large gatherings

    Gunmen went in calmly, shot at people for 1.5 hours without being stopped, then calmly walked back into a car and drove off.

    IS claimed responsibility immediately

    All of this clearly shows it was the Ukraine!

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      This has never happened before in Russia except those couple of times when they did and Putin was literally responsible.

      Such a strange attack by this mysterious IS, and very convenient timing too! Poor Russia, people keep attacking them out of the blue!

      I will now instruct my LEGO miniature violin to play Alexa in commemoration.

    • OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee
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      8 months ago

      Makes sense. ISIS, who claimed responsibility for the attack, famously hates when Russia blocks a truce in Gaza.

      • pissedatyall@lemmynsfw.com
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        8 months ago

        It was a cease fire proposal - you have to start somewhere. But Russia and China think it’s better to use Gazans a political pawns in the upcoming US elections, so surprise, surprise - some would disagree.

  • resetbypeer@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    So in essence:

    • US warns Russia for planned terror attack in Moscow

    • Russian government and Putin specific either ignore it for the reason the west is fooling them because would fit narrative for the war in Ukraine. Or

    • Russian government is just incompetent to do anything with that information. Or they know and deliberately don’t do anything with it to link it to Ukraine (even though the perpetrators are IS). Since this was also done in 1999 to blame the Chechnyans, it would fit the profile.

    Either way it will be Soviet style lying. The incompetence will be wiped under the rug. The deliberate holding back information and not adequate precautions will not be easily to be proven, yet it creates the narrative for the mobilisation. Fear is Russia’s weapon of mass destruction, the lies are the instruments to fire those weapons.

    “Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid.”

  • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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    8 months ago

    MSNBC is reporting that Russian sources are saying 40 dead.

    CNN is reporting 40 dead, but that the shooting was at a shopping center outside the concert hall.

    Still developing.

    • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml
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      8 months ago

      CNN is reporting 40 dead, but that the shooting was at a shopping center outside the concert hall.

      In the video I wish I hadn’t just watched it looked more like that to me.

      • Warl0k3@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        There were gunmen in both places. Videos linked in this thread show that, though I do not recommend watching them.

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldB
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    8 months ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    Russian news reports said that the assailants also used explosives, causing a massive blaze at the Crocus City Hall on the western edge of Moscow.

    Video posted on social media showed huge plumes of black smoke rising over the building.

    Russia’s state RIA Novosti news agency reported that at least three people in combat fatigues fired weapons.

    Extended rounds of gunfire could be heard on multiple videos posted by Russian media and Telegram channels.

    Another one showed a man inside the auditorium, saying the assailants set it on fire, with incessant gunshots ringing out in the background.

    Andrei Vorobyov, the governor of the Moscow region, said he was heading to the area and set up a task force to deal with the damage.


    The original article contains 202 words, the summary contains 123 words. Saved 39%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

    • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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      8 months ago

      Of course not, they’re already blaming Ukraine.

      US security services have notified Russia of an impending attack, they notified US citizens there to about large gatherings

      Gunmen went in calmly, shot at people for 1.5 hours without being stopped, then calmly walked back into a car and drove off.

      IS claimed responsibility immediately

      All of this clearly shows it was the Ukraine!

  • kautau@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    A thing that’s really annoying to me about this is they don’t specify what the gunmen looked like and specifically what rifles they were carrying. IS has claimed responsibility, but if it was a bunch of Russian dudes with brand new AKs, it’s far less likely it was actually the IS, and was just an FSB op. Granted the FSB could have supplied brand new AKs, but far less likely to be IS if it was just some Russian commandos

    • whereisk@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      I don’t see an upside for Putin in this. Given how many years he’s been in power anything bad that happens falls on him for failing to prevent it, there’s hardly anyone else left to blame. He’ll probably fire a few people to look as if he’s doing something.

    • nutsack@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      they’ve been known to recruit remotely, I think. and if it was someone from afganistan, i imagine they would source weapons locally. why would the guy go through the trouble/risk of smuggling a rifle and ammo? that makes no sense.