I am somewhat amazed how much influence Israel seems to have over the United States. Even colleges and universities behaving as though they may as well be established in some autocratic, authoritarian state. It’s like a signal was sent out all over the US. The same nation that brought the world NSO has people doxxing students for supporting Palestinians. How easy it’s become to dehumanize people, women and children, babies even because the religious fervor truly has the right wing zealots believing they are “the chosen people”. The dehumanization of Palestinian people is quite disgusting.
Another reminder that religion and politics should never be allowed to mix anywhere.
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When will this lie stop? People never shut the fuck up about this conflict in the west. There are endless protests and the media repeats that Isreal needs to stop every day.
And yet all day, every day, on Lemmy people cry about the west not caring or writing about it or shilling for Isreal. It’s just delusional bordering on dishonest at this point.
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I am not. I meant exactly what I said and I’d thank you to not make shit up and pretend I meant something else. The US government is made up of many many people who vocalize their disagreement with Isreal and have called it a genocide.
The Associated Press, the media organization this post is from is an American non-profit based in New York. Easily half the articles run in the US are rehashed AP articles.
Because the US is full of Christian zealots who believe that when the Jews manage to rebuild their temple, armageddon happens and they all get to go to Heaven.
They are actively cheering on WWIII and the deaths of billions over a 2000 year old work of fiction. And are neglecting to mention that this Jewish country they all support will be bombed into dust for their messiah to return.
Christian Zionists belong to a death cult and the fact that they have so much influence over an allegedly secular government is gross.
The part they don’t say out loud is that they also believe that all the Jews in the world have to live in Israel after the temple is rebuilt. Meaning expelling Jews from the U.S. and all other countries other than Israel.
It’s also full of very influential Jews. While the evangelicals are certainly one major driving force, let’s not underestimate the intra-group pressure that Jews in the west apply to one another to conform.
In 2022, NSO Group was reportedly selling zero-click exploits to governments for breaking into individuals’ phones.
Remember, some of us aren’t as informed as you, we need a little help.
NSO Pegasus spyware was discovered on phones of activists, journalists, dissenters the world over some years ago. It is now likely being used by the US government which cried foul when the news first broke.
It was found to be a zero-click !!! spyware. Meaning you didn’t even have to click on something accidentally or ignorantly for it to get established on your phone. Then you were basically owned. They sold it to whoever, especially autocratic, authoritarian regimes who were using it to surely crackdown on any dissent.
Surveillance as a Service: The Global Impact of Israeli “Defense” Technologies on Privacy and Human Rights
A stasi like future awaits us all, even inside democracies.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Its not surprising, the most support outside of Nazi Germany for Nazi Germany was from the United States including the Nazis taking eugenics from field trips to the southern United States.
Source on Nazis getting the idea for eugenics from the Southern US? That sounds like Netanyahu’s insane take that the Nazis got the idea for the Holocaust from a Palestinian mufti.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1299061/
Is well published and well known, eugenics are an American creation, Germany just managed to nationalize it to an astounding degree. Hell the us was still sterilizing criminals and the mentally unfit up until iirc like 1990 and I’m 1976 it came out that about 25% of the American native population were forcibly sterilized… You know 40+ yrs after WW2.
Interesting. Thanks for the links!
Fuck you, Biden. I’m only voting for you because the alternatives are worse.
You can’t complain about this if you consent to it.
You have never been a couch sports coach, right?
I’ve never consented to preserving the duopoly in our political system
I mean, you were never inquired about it in the first place. But that’s in the end about as valid as saying you never consented to A being a vowel.
Jill Stein 2024
I’m going a step further and not voting for him.
Do what you want, but don’t kid yourself into thinking you’ll help the situation by exercising a vote for Trump, 3rd party, or abstaining from voting. Expect a lot worse treatment for Palestine, its citizenry, and other middle eastern countries from his opponent.
That being said, you may not have to worry about who you’ll vote for ever again if the fascists gain control… you’ll have a lot of other things to worry about, but voting won’t be one of them.
I’ll vote 3rd party with you. Don’t be dissuaded by the neoliberal hate machine, we have a right to choose something better. Maybe if enough of us believe that, we could have it.
Not everybody voting against Trump are neoliberals. We just believe a 2nd Trump term will be significantly worse than a 2nd Biden term.
Voting 3rd party is just a way to make you feel like you’ve done something good without actually doing anything good. Fact is, are only 2 parties in this country.
Thank you for your support :)
“I’m only voting for you because you’re my preferred candidate.”
…uh huh
Voting.
There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide. You have already hit rock bottom.
What if the other side is also genocide along with totalitarian fascist rule?
You still would be voting for a self proclaimed non-Jewish Zionist whose pockets are lined by Israel to commit genocide. Don’t let any “other side” or bullshit “trolley problem” argument take that away from you. At least have the balls to own it. This whole purely pragmatic approach to “lesser evil dilemma” is what brought Biden to power in the first place. But yeah surely next time it’ll be better. Doesn’t matter how many people die because “Orange man bad”.
Since I couldn’t get the message across on my first comment, let me repeat myself. There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide.
The corollary of “there is no lesser evil”, is “there is no greater evil”. You’re saying that there is absolutely no crime that could be committed that would be worse? Like, say, genocide AND a descent into fascism? Maybe flavored with a nice sprinkling of loss of women’s rights?
Don’t forget he’s also a serial war criminal pardoner, on top of everybody else. The orange man has no respect for human rights
Don’t forget that Trump has pretty much called for a genocide right here at home in the US, against trans people, against immigrants, and against pretty much anyone who doesn’t share his views. This doesn’t even count the stuff that his donors and PACs already have lined up for him to sign as soon as he sits his ass in the chair, or the fact that several US states have attempted to decriminalize murdering certain groups of people.
It’s just a trumpet, pay it no mind
Trump would absolutely make the genocide significantly worse than the track it’s currently on if he wins. And he’s gonna make life in the US worse too. The “both sides are equally bad” rhetoric has absolutely failed over the last 8 years. If he lost in 2016 the entire world would be on a completely different track and if you don’t want to believe it then I’m confident that you don’t actually know the differences in policy and ideologies between the Democratic and Republican parties.
And before anyone says I’m accuses me of being a liberal, I’m a libertarian socialist and I’m registered to the Socialist Party of Massachusetts. I voted Bernie in both primaries then Green Party in 2016 (which I’ve come to regret even though Clinton was going to win my home state by a huge margin) then Biden in 2020. I voted this way in '20 because while Biden ignores socialists Trump wants them all dead.
Socialism without revolution is a fringe and hopeless endeavour. It requires fundamentally changing the mechanisms by which the economy functions.
Scandinavia says ‘Hi, we found a middle ground!’
Yes, but we also have proportional representation in our parliaments. Making gradual ideological change realistic.
Ethnic exclusion, racism, a wealth of natural resources, a small population, and no real geopolitical tensions to worry about (prior to joining NATO, at least). Hm.
I’m sure this is a robust and scalable model.
It could even be reasonably argued that socdem countries, or maybe even broader speaking liberal democracies, already had the necessary revolutions we just need to get better at dismantling the remnants of the old by providing alternatives in ways that don’t risk other advances. Pretty much parallel to the Sudden Enlightenment, Gradual Cultivation doctrine you see in Zen: Neither is it guaranteed that you notice enlightenment (in the sense of realising that that’s what happened to you), nor is it in any way guaranteed that you suddenly cease to be a shithead. Nor will you find a way of gradual cultivation that makes you unlearn how to tie your shoes. Not going to happen.
Or, differently put: If you wish to convert a village to anarchism, one of the first things to do is figure out how to organise trash collection and water distribution. You might say “but it’s a state mandate that municipalities provide these things! We haven’t agreed to anything like that!”. My sibling in Discord you’re ready to abolish bedtime when you’re wise enough to voluntarily go to bed early, again. Don’t make theoretical principles the enemy of praxis.
Revolution more often than not results in authoritarianism, and is therefore just as hopeless.
There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide.
This is obviously untrue. If the option a) is genocide and b) is genocide and also dismantling the methods to protest it, methods to oust the decision makers, dismantling national security in resources and relationships, at the same time as blatantly plundering both the pockets of citizens and communal coffers, there’s very obviously a more evil option.
Equivocation and black-white thinking is comfortable, but there are still shades of brown when the shit has hit the fan.
In the best of worlds you wouldn’t be in this situation, now you are, make the better choice.
shades of brown
That bit of poetry touched my heart. Thank you.
Yeah so let’s elect a man that said he’d be a dictator to the highest office and put him in charge of the largest military on the globe. Sounds like a nice alternative in our facsimile of democracy.
Lemmy sure does seem to have a more vocal insane minority that are either Russian shills, or just want to burn down the US. This is my biggest issue with the fediverse.
Anyone who claims Trump and Biden are the same is just a fool.
There is no purpose to that line of thinking in our election system. They believe you should vote for who you truly want and do not compromise. In a perfect world this is how it would be. We do not inhabit a perfect world, it is our job to build towards it. The only thing to do in the interim is to make sure the American Empire is not brandished as a sword of Trump’s will and push to change the way we vote to a ranked system. It is easier to start this ranked movement locally and then take it to the feds.
Yeah a lot of people here are ideologues without a real ideology, they don’t really have much interest in actually making things better they’re just desperate to feel superior to the rest of us. Basically conspiracy theory mentality ‘I know the real truth and you’re all dumb’ but ‘I’m more ideologically pure than you’ that’s why it’s always such extreme and totally one sided - they won’t interact with the reality because it makes it harder to feel so correct when you admit things like this conflict is incredibly complex politically and morally
I agree.
Dearest Biden,
Please stop trying to get Trump elected.
Pleasant Regards, Everyone who gives a shit about abortion access.
Only reason Biden is free to support genocide is because his opponent is Trump. It is the current political climate responsible for Israel’s blatant disregard to humanity.
This is why Biden doesn’t care about his campaign promises. He just has to use the name Trump a few times in his speech and call several minority groups “the fabric of society” while doing nothing to help them. The only people winning during the next election is the lobbyists and the “bOtH muh SiDeS” people (the ones who complain if you critique about their favorite party).
Doing nothing to help them is still clearly better than doing everything possible to hurt them.
Remember, Trump moved the whole US embassy to Jerusalem just to give Palestinians the middle finger. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1I810Z/ You can be sure that a very high majority of US politicians will take the same pro-Israel stand. The reason is simply campaign funding and lobbying. Look at AIPAC
fucking seriously. he won’t step aside, and he won’t stop holding it over the abyss.
he wants to make it as painful as possible to vote for him, but I just… I know at this point I can’t, abd I’m starting to see much less radical people than me make that call.
It terrifies me as a transgender immigrant because I know Trump literally is dying for the chance to genocide me and my friends, but Biden really isn’t helping at all. This country is a failure.
yep! spin the wheel of genocides!
this is why you don’t vote for the “lesser evil” for twenty years. takes electoral politics from ‘impotent’ to ‘suicidal’.
its… well its not cool that this is the only option, but there are other kinds.
That’s the thing.
Whenever somebody goes “we have to vote Biden just this once to stop Trump” I think back on the last 2 or 3 decades were the Democrat’s appeal to vote have been little more than a variant of this and how it has brought things to such a point that now the only two viable candidates to POTUS are genocide lovers (Mango Moussolini vs Smooth Talker Moussolini).
It’s like fighting a War by taking one hill after another whilst going in the wrong direction - sure, those who are the kind that can’t see the forest because of the trees, are gonna be celebrating after they succeed in taking a hill in one of their attempts every 4 years, but meanwhile at a strategical level things keep getting worse and worse, because they’ve been conditioned to always assault the wrong hill.
real politics are direct, not electoral. especially here.
that doesn’t just mean violence. it means if you want infrastructure; steal AutoCAD or grab a shovel. maybe hit up some friends. worst case: if they kill you for it, and what you built was cool, they have to keep running it for a few decades or radicalize everybody who remembers you.
the fact that the powerful even wanted to do this shows nothing else will work.
The trouble with every “vote” argument on the left is always about the POTUS. The Republicans had a mission for decades that not a single non-Republican would run unopposed across the entire damn country no matter how small the vote was. Is it a sheriff for some backwater town? Yup, better make sure a Republican is there. How about a superintendent?
From the ground they have worked absolutely hard to make sure they had control of as much of the government to control every vote.
To use your analogy of fighting a war. As you said they’re celebrating taking a hill in an attempt in every four years. But that’s because one group is only doing the charge every four years and wondering “Why are we losing?” when the other side is digging the trenches advancing every year. Yes, this is the Democrats fuckup because they certainly aren’t investing in them like the Republicans but then among a supply of left wing friends I’m the one informing “Here’s the important fucking local vote about abortion/taxes/who’s running for x seat” and finding out often that I’m the only one who was faffed to vote.
You can always migrate away from the US.
Way easier said than done
Grow up.
that’s not really a response to anything I said, its just suggesting that I’m a child and my opinions dont matter until they match yours. which is kinda shitty.
possibly because you dont have any coherent criticism of what I said, but dont want to change your beliefs or admit mine could also be valid?
I don’t think it was suggesting it.
Because Trump would have handled this better?
Only reason we didn’t end up with a war in Iran in 2020 is pure fucking luck.
No, Trump is clearly fucking worse… but I don’t want free Palestine folks to have a reason not to vote for Biden.
I agree Biden is 100% fucking this up. I agree that I’m worried that the Democrats will somehow snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by losing to an opponent beaten once before because of how truly awful Trump is.
But I’m absolutely amazed at the free Palestine folks who are threatening that they’re the vote between Biden, who’s wagging a finger at Israel going “don’t” and fuck all else… and the guy who calls Netanyahu by his first name, buddied up to Israel, moved the embassy to Jerusalem, wanted to ban Muslims from the US, and is cozied up to the evangelicals who want to support Israel starting a holy war just so they can have Revalations go off.
Like both parties are bad, but there’s bad… and there’s “lets throw styrofoam containers of gasoline on the fire, that’ll surely put it out.”
That doesn’t make any sense.
If Iran is allied with Russia, and Trump is Putin’s puppet, then wouldn’t Trump be good for Iran?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/10/iran-nuclear-bomb-iaea-fordow/
Trump had an Iranian general assassinated with a drone strike on an airport in Iraq in January 2020, killing 10 people. The fallout from that almost escalated into a war.
Only reason everyone forgot it was because 2020 was a super shitty year.
Brought to you by decades of Israeli lobbying money mixed with gullible religious morons in the U.S. legislature. Money in politics leads to genocide.
In 2023 Israel spent $4 million in lobbying and got $4 billion in aid. We should pool together and buy ourselves some politicians, y’all. No other investment reliably returns 1000:1.
We should pool together and buy ourselves some politicians, y’all.
Traditionally, one calls that “forming a party” but unfortunately we live in a two-party system.
It should be noted that the $4B Israel got wasn’t just $4B for Israel. It was $4B for purchase of US weapons systems too Israel. And it wasn’t just Israel lobbying for this spending. You had a host of MIC lobbyists throwing in their own millions.
It should further be noted that AIPAC isn’t just doing a one-time $4M retail purchase of legislation. They’ve spend decades building up an enormous back bench of former US Congresscritters, allied staffers, political bundlers, event organizers, and religious affiliates. They injected $4M down the funnel in an 11th-hour push for the next traunch of military kick-backs that they’ve been receiving since the Bush 43 administration.
No other investment reliably returns 1000:1.
Its important to recognize that Israel provides an incredibly vital service to the US military in the form of maintaining control of the Suez Canal. Its not just a 1000:1 ROI. They’re holding Egyptian national leadership at gunpoint and we’re kicking them over some money to keep the gun loaded.
Re: gullible religious folks in the US.
After 9/11, I remember seeing “Jews for Jesus” pamphlets being passed out by right wing Jewish folks to any person passing by. It was a cynical ploy to use the environment to further right wing Israeli religious interests. Land grabs by way of illegal settlement building has never stopped.
Of course, many, perhaps majority even, of evangelical and fundamentalist christians in America are the most ‘useful idiots’ since they believe the Rapture requires full support of Israel in order for end times Prophecy to come to fruition.
Are you sure the people passing it out were right-wing Jews and not “Messianic Jews?” Because the latter are often people who were raised as Christians, found out they had a Jewish grandmother, then became a Messianic Jew to feel closer to her.
There are also plenty of people who are third-generation Messianic Jew or whatever.
Sure, there are people who are ethnically Jewish and grew up steeped in Jewish culture and religion but one day converted to Christianity, but they aren’t the majority of the “Jews for Jesus” crowd.
It could’ve been, I can only say they wore kippah’s and had sidelocks that you’d see in orthodox communities.
(ps i am an atheist btw and respect peoples right to believe in whatever gets you some peace in this life. but also see that wherever religion and politics meet it tends to become problematic. some minority or other will suffer, not to mention loss of basic human rights, oppression, telling other people how they must live their lives, ancient based roles and kingdoms that must be re-established, who they can love, violence, bigotry, etc… and thats no bueno)
Such a great idea to make an international organisation for diplomacy where the nations that are already dominant also have complete power to stop anything they don’t like.
Surely this is a credible institution and not just a respectable veil over imperialism.
That’s right just sit there and frown at the guy vetoing instead of doing your duty to humanity and punching him in the face.
You think those countries would have joined without those powers?
No. What’s your point?
In a world with an egalitarian UN, but no great powers in it, everyone is just going to pay attention to what the great powers are off doing on their own. Nobody would care what the UN is doing.
Almost like the entire concept of peaceful diplomacy with global superpowers is foundationally flawed, which is my point.
That’s no excuse to give the big players absolute veto power. They could have limited it only to some specific matters where the fact they are big players (and not obstacles) actually matters.
if there are 192 people at a table and 1 Nazi you have 193 Nazis
It’s so funny to me that you guys turn to violence so quickly to get what you want, like you start talking like you care about things being fair but literally can’t help but show your true colors ‘Anyone who doesn’t do what I want should be beaten!’
You love imperialism, you just think you should be in charge of it lol
“you guys” meaning who exactly? Anarchists aren’t known for their love of imperialism.
And what, a punch is imperialism now? You really just want anyone that disagrees with you to be a nazi or something, don’t you? Or I guess you assumed I was a tankie, didn’t you? Some words are just doomed once liberals get a hold of them.
I guarantee you if someone punched that guy in his stupid fucking face mid-veto it would be front page news and it would influence public opinion, and at the very least that person could tell their grandkids, “I didn’t just sit there frowning and doing nothing while thousands were condemned to death and suffering.” It would also delegitimise the UN quite a lot, which I think would be a good thing. But it’s not going to happen because anybody there is well-paid and has a prestigious position, which is one of the ways an institution like that maintains its appearance of legitimacy.
EDIT: Oh, and anyone that doesn’t “do what I want”? You think there are two sides to whether Palestine needs support and recognition in the midst of an ongoing genocide? This isn’t a difficult moral calculation.
Every international organization alike, is there to perpetuate US/Europe imperialism.
Hey now, there exist international organizations to perpetuate Russian and Chinese imperialism too! Except the Russian ones are always dysfunctional as fuck and never actually work out.
And the Chinese ones almost always work exclusively on economic Swords of Damocles.
That doesn’t really distinguish them from the US ones that have historically relied on the IMF and the World Bank.
“Biden and his administration are doing all they can” my ass!
They’re exactly as beholden to the Israeli apartheid state as all the previous ones going back to 1948, if not MORE than many of them.
Just one example of many that the DNC is still stuck in 1992 and almost half as unresponsive to the will of the majority of the people as the literal fascists on the other side of the aisle 🤬
They are doing all they can to cover for Israel, while attempting to appear neutral.
Someone remind me again why does the US, or any country, have veto power in the UN?
A veto power basically makes the entire institution useless.
Because without it there would be no UN, and as useless as you think the current UN is, I promise you no UN is even more useless.
It’s bleak but the fact that we can even get everybody in the same room is remarkable. Like it or not, a UN where Monaco and the US (or, Russia, China, etc) have the same power at the table is a UN where the big players reject its authority and form their own clubs.
Justify how there would be no UN without such veto. Because, honestly, an agreement council where you can only agree as a group to do something if the big players don’t say otherwise to me looks like it just compounds the eternal problems we already have and is nothing more than just another flavour of “feel free to protest in a way that does not importunate me” Capitalism.
Because there isn’t a UN without America, China and Russia.
France and the UK could leave and the UN could exist but those 3? Not a chance.
Each of those larger nations carries so much weight that their influence on global politics would outshine any body that tried to legislate without them.
The UN could exist technically but it would have no teeth at all. It has few enough as is.
Still, doesn’t sound like a good argument to give those nations veto power over all decisions. Like, currently the way things are reading a motion could come it to have the UN acknowledge that, say, Palestinians are still human beings, and the US could veto that - and then what?
That can’t happen - go read the declaration on human rights. The question is never if they’re humans: it’s if the state is recognized. Their rights as humans aren’t contested.
Taiwan is still not recognized as a country only because China refuses to do so.
This is better than the alternative.
Wasn’t that why the League of Nations failed?
The League of Nations failed because it was toothless, and basically did have extreme veto powers built in for world powers.
Countries weren’t abiding by their obligations to directly intervene with attacks on member nations when a world power was an aggressor because doing so would create severe political problems for them. To this end the UN have their own armed forces for such issues.
Do you honestly think the UN is that effective when it concerns international human rights? They approved a ceasefire in Gaza and nothing happened. There’s a two-year long genocide in Ukraine and the UN just let’s the Russian Ambassador carry on, and they’ve done nothing to stop them.
Things like food aid and whatnot they’re obviously helpful with, but if the League of Nations was toothless then the UN is wearing dentures in my mind lol
You say that all have the same power but Its never the small countries vetoing the big questions though.
Its always USA , China or Russia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vetoed_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions
He didn’t say all nations have the same power in the UN. He said the opposite. Read the comment before you reply to it
“Like it or not, a UN where Monaco and the US (…) have the same power at the table is a UN where the big players reject its authority and form their own clubs.”
Ah I see. I misread. It still stands though that to bring the big guys to the table, we give them the chance to have it their way and therefore get nowhere with the big questions
Only permanent members of UNSC have veto powers.
So the only way to get the big guys to the table is by giving them the option to have it their way by force
I know that there are pro’s and cons to this but IMO its too much power
Critics say that the veto is the most undemocratic element of the UN,[5] as well as the main cause of inaction on war crimes and crimes against humanity, as it effectively prevents UN action against the permanent members and their allies.[6]
(From wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power)
Only the five permanent members have a veto power on the security council. USA, China, Russia, UK, and France.
No one else has the power to veto.
In fact, I think grandparent was talking about a hypothetical and counterfactual world where every nation had the same powers at the UN.
- it’s* never the small countries
- It’s* always the USA
See league of nations.
US, China, Russia, France, and the UK have veto power over Security Council resolutions because they are the ones who are called upon to actually enforce Security Council resolutions.
if that were the argument, China, Russia, France and the UK could now act to enforce the resolution if the US is not doing it. After all, they have veto power too, right?
A veto means the resolution does not pass in the first place.
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The threat of violence.
U.S. deputy ambassador Robert Wood told the Security Council that the veto “does not reflect opposition to Palestinian statehood but instead is an acknowledgment that it will only come from direct negotiations between the parties.”
Fuck you Robert Wood!
I would love to see an Internet campaign to bombard him with “Fuck You Robert Wood, the coward.”
Reminder the US is an imperialist power that is evil.
Reminder anyone actually describing things as evil has the intellect of a child and no concept of reality
Wow your such an intellectual. So you wanna tell me rape, torture, genocide are all not evil? What about pedophilia? What the nazis did? Is that evil? Killing innocent civilians?
No they’re not 'evil t’hey’re heinous acts committed by humans, but what we’re really taking about is people and collections of people - they’re not some spiritual terror hellbent on causing pain they’re normal people with parents and likely children they love, friends and ambitions and hopes for the world.
Acting like things you don’t agree with are evil allows you to hate them without question, of course they must ve stopped they’re only trying to hurt people… and of course you shouldn’t bother to question your own team they’re good so a thing they do is justified in the fight against evil… which is how you become someone else’s evil.
Throw out childish bronze age notions of how reality works and sccept the complexity which is all around us and turns everything into a Grey area.
The vote in the 15-member Security Council was 12 in favor, the United States opposed and two abstentions, from the United Kingdom and Switzerland. U.S. allies France, Japan and South Korea supported the resolution.
Pretty interesting
The US veto allows their allies to vote for popularity without being bound
We won’t know if that happened here but it could have influenced it
I posed a question in another thread, but this one seems like it’s winning:
Who would represent Palestine if they had been accepted? Who can represent Palestine?
Well in a 2 state solution, you’d expect the Palestinians to be able to choose.
Unless we don’t want a 2 state solution.
Right. But wouldn’t they need a Palestine state before being eligible to join the UN? With unified leadership to represent them?
Seems like a prerequisite.
139 countries recognize Palestine as a state. Officially, they’re a non member observer state.
Which of their two “governments” is being represented though?
That’s putting the cart before the horse. You can’t say “you have to have conducted a general election before you become a nation state.”
That would be like telling a slave they can’t become a free person unless they’ve already got a job that pays them direct wages.
That’s not accurate. A UN recognition of nation state is not a pre requisite for self governance. FIFA recognizes more nations than the UN. If Taiwan can’t be recognized by the UN I don’t think there’s reasonable expectation for Palestine.
A UN recognition of nation state is not a pre requisite for self governance.
I’m not saying it is a prerequisite. Historically being free was not a prerequisite for being paid some kind of wage at times either, for that matter.
Historically, many former colonial nations gained their independence before being able to hold free and fair elections. Kenya for example, or South Africa.
Palestine is in a similar state at present.
Unless we don’t want a 2 state solution.
More importantly Isreal as well as the PA reject the idea of a 2 state solution.
Besides that being false (well, at least for the PA), nobody should care what Israel has to say on the matter. Anyone committing genocide loses their right to an opinion on the matter.
PA, you know Gaza isn’t Palestine. Plus the two state is set at the founding of Israel, and both Israel and Palestine have equal rights to be represented in the UN.
It is another story that Israel is trying deliberately to undermine Palestinian rights and oppose any statehood. All the road blocks, checkpoints, walls, settlement etc. built and imposed to the Palestinian population are completely illegal according to international law, but again Israel backed by the US act with extreme impunity.
Why hasn’t PA held elections for 20 years or so?
Under this thought process, if Gaza isn’t Palestine, should the Palestinians’ state be recognized, what happens to Gaza? Is it absorbed into Israel? From what I can tell I don’t think this is gonna fly, almost anyone talking about this and the Gazans themselves don’t agree it seems
Never said that, What is a Palestinian territory is defined in 1948. Where it is clearly stated what should belong to Israel and what to Palestine.
I mean, that ship has sailed though right? Israel will never agree to that unless it’s destroyed.
I guess so, but Israel is acting like this because they have the US behind their back, and I am sure if this wasn’t the case they would not be so reckless and act with such impunity in the region and it is a failure of the US to rein them.
I’m not as sure of that as you are, but I hope we get to find out soon.
They’d probably have all been murdered by muslim fanatics without outside support, something I feel far roo many here would support.
You mean exactly what Israel is doing right now? Because they don’t seem fazed by the high civilian casualties or the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza.
Taiwan can’t get recognized despite its government being a founding member of the UN and folks surprised it’s contentious for Palestine to be recognized?
This outcome was by no means surprising, especially as it was not Palestine’s first application for membership and the US has even vetoed resolutions calling for an immediate ceasefire in the conflict between Israel and Palestine on several occasions. The difference to your comparison, however, is that Israel itself, unlike China, has no right of veto in the UN Security Council.
This is a bit misleading, though, Taiwan doesn’t want to be recognised as a nation, it wants to be recognised as the one legitimate government of China.
Palestine just wants a seat at the table.
The problem with that is that Bejing makes it very clear that declaring independence would lead to an invasion of Taiwan. So for a long time most Taiwanese rather did want to keep the current basically independent status quo. However support for unification was low since Taiwan became a democracy. Since the Hong Kong protests and the extraction bill polls for independence show a majority supporting it though.
Also Palestine has a seat on the table, just no vote, as a observer of the UN without being a member.
Yeah, I didn’t want to jump too deep into the specifics of the Taiwanese stance since it’s quite complex, just wanted to note the difference between the two.
seat at the table
Yeah probably not the best way of phasing this, my bad!
Of course the UN is a joke anyway, so it’s not like this really matters in any way.
WTH
