I’ll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man’s advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other’s pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren’t a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the “values” I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I’ve looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another’s command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone’s pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the “lay down and take it” model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I’m interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there’s a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn’t even think to question this programming… Also, I don’t plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I’m still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
I can answer this without even bringing you an essay based on vast personal experience. Get this: you exist, and your circumstances and experiences are hardly uncommon. How could it be anything but highly likely that women who also don’t conform to those views also exist?
I really like this argument because the only response I can come up with is “I’m uniquely kinky/unlucky compared to everyone else” based on no real evidence
Maybe… maybe I’m not the main character…
The truth has no path, it’s all chaos
Rofl his eyes uncovered!
I’m rooting for you. I had the good fortune of chancing on some sexually assertive woman early on, and it kind of led me accidentally to your own realization: that I want to be desired and subjected to a lustful gaze in addition to doing the same.
Although it sounds like some flavour of gentle bdsm would probably suit you. That community is also much better at communicating their specific desires, like you have shown here. So even if you aren’t into dominance play, you are probably into some control swapping fantasies.
And by “fantasies” I don’t mean some elaborate play-acted scenario, but specifically what you described, discussed ahead of time, and then played out for mutual pleasure.
Shaka, when the walls fell.
If you are interested in unlearning paternalistic relationship structures I would recommend you read / listen to Dan Savage. He does a weekly sex and relationship columns since the 1990 and a podcast since the early 2000s so he has been doing this a long time so has a great backlog of material most of which is free. Especially since you are young and want some outsider perspective.
He talks often about alternative sexualities (queer, kink, etc.) and relationships structures (polyamory, open relationships, female led relationships, etc.) which might not be applicable to you. I know you mentioned that you are NOT into BDSM but understanding how common and acceptable doing something like that it makes what you are asking into context. Its the same tools around consent and communication about needs regardless of what you are doing. Listening and understanding the extreme level sexual acts will put your asks into perspective. Also hearing about the variety of ways organize their relationships and sex lives will really deprogram you from the single view of gender and sexuality you were brought up in.
Lol BDSM is not really common or acceptable. Nor should it be. It is amazing how far extremists have attempted to push the goalpost in this regard.
We already learned this in the 80’s when psychologists were pushing primal therapy. Abusing yourself or others just leads to wanting to abuse more. A self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
I am all for sex positivity, but pretending it is okay to hurt yourself or others because “consent” is just stupid. It is like the whole choking people during sex. Brain damage is the opposite of sexy.
Control in this regard is likewise the polar opposite of love and caring in a relationship. Society would be better off without these sick cunts pushing their ideology in movies and print.
Everything else you said is on point though
According to The Journal of Sex Research in 2017 :
Paraphilic sexual interests are defined as unusual or anomalous, but their actual occurrence in nonclinical samples is still unknown. This study looked at desire for and experience of paraphilic behaviors in a sample of adult men and women in the general population. A secondary goal was to compare the results of two survey modes—traditional landline telephone versus online. A total of 1,040 persons classified according to age, gender, education, ethnic background, religious beliefs, area of residency, and corresponding to the norm for the province of Quebec were interviewed. Nearly half of this sample expressed interest in at least one paraphilic category, and approximately one-third had had experience with such a practice at least once. Voyeurism, fetishism, frotteurism, and masochism interested both male and female respondents at levels above what is usually considered to be statistically unusual (15.9%). Interestingly, levels of interest in fetishism and masochism were not significantly different for men and women. Masochism was significantly linked with higher satisfaction with one’s own sexual life. As expected, the online mode generated more acknowledgment of paraphilic interest than the telephone mode. These results call into question the current definition of normal (normophilic) versus anomalous (paraphilic) sexual behaviors. (Emphasis mine)
I would say that nearly half would be common enough. Ignore a common desires just leads repression, shame and for people to seek out these desires in more dangerous locations and situations usually without consent. Those who are honest about what they want get to do this with willing partners in specifically time constrained way. This is not controlling anyone outside those situations or pretending that God says all women are submissive to men.
I would also like mention that most kink and BDSM books by professions and those in the scene will discourage the use of choking by anyone in all situations. They will go into exquisite details about to safely flog a man safe and then say how choking is dangerous and shouldn’t be done. So don’t say that BDSM is choking because that is generally frowned upon (although this is still debated).
Thinking about BDSM (Sadism and Machosism specifically) as violence is missing the point and thinking about it the wrong context. There a many different ritualized and formalized pain rituals that we practice as a society. Something like a marathon, cross fit, sitting for tattoos are other modern example where people voluntarily go through pain for a set period of time for fun and to see if they can do it. These are all acceptable hobbies where pain is a large portion of why people do it. Not to mention that multitude of religious rituals where someone goes through something difficult or painful in a specific context. Its the sex negativity in the cultural that says if someone may get an erection or wet thinking about this pain where we draw the line.
Thank you for a clinically dry examination of BDSM. First, I am not talking about cosplayers and people who like to be spanked. Second, having met a lot of people into BDSM it is not healthy and detached acts like you describe.
What it is mostly is ritualized reenactment of trauma. Orgasm and sexual pleasure is also a extremely strong reinforcement. This leads to an unhealthy feedback loop.
I get it. Edge lords think everything is permissable under the sun. I will admit some curiosity on my part about different and unusual things. Curiosity quickly turned to disgust when I realized the reality of human nature.
Misogynists love power and control and are drawn to BDSM and the amount of unhealthy power dynamics like finding new partners to abuse is very real in the culture as are acts like choking, abuse, and rape.
I think clinically looking at this issue belays the reality and trauma most of its members participate it. Is there safe BDSM between consenting adults? Perhaps but there is much more psychological and physical abuse going on than they are willing to admit
So no, they don’t get to be lumped into all the other sexual expression and get a free ride on the permissable train in my book. Having personally witnessed several people get real fucked up it is not cool.
I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins
In my personal experience, this is pretty much the norm. Women can have just as much sex drive as men, and can express it just as “aggressively”. In every relationship I’ve had, there are times where I’ll initiate, times where she’ll initiate, and times where we’ll both look at each other with a “Yes. Right now.” look. Note that I’ve never been into any BDSM or other “exciting” kink stuff, I’m just talking about initiative and passionately expressing that “I want you” feeling.
Of course, this is a side of women you won’t see until you get with someone that both wants you and feels comfortable enough you to express it.
So long story short: What you’re looking for is pretty much the norm as far as I can tell.
you’re young, ladies your age can be crazy about sex as much as guys
there’s every experience out there if you’re willing to look beyond someone who isn’t as pretty as the other one.
Communication is the most important thing- I was feeling stuck in this pattern I my relationship of many years, feeling like all I could do was “give” the physical intimacy while my partner “received” it. After some conversation and a couple of false starts, she is doing a wonderful job at taking the initiative more and now it feels like more of a 50/50 thing. My point is, it’s definitely out there but you may need to work with someone to tell them what you want And be patient while your partner is trying something that may be new and unfamiliar.
I grew up with the opposite expectations (that a grown woman’s sexuality should be a take charge sort of desire) and it took me a ridiculously long time to come to terms with what I like in the bedroom.
But in terms of daily life? No. Wanting a partner, a true partner who doesn’t expect you to make all the decisions is 100% normal, average, and healthy attitude. Wanting someone to initiate intimacy half the time is also not at all outrageous, nor do I think it unusual.
I always think that just because something turns you on, doesn’t make it a good way to run your life and certainly not the world! Those are different questions entirely.
ETA one of the things that helped me understand my own desires was realizing that submissive != passive, not at all. Even within the subset of women who might prefer you to lead in bed, there are more who will be active participants who want to please you, and in the process, get off themselves, yes? I think that passivity comes from fear.
And even more people are “vanilla”, as it’s called, and exactly like your fantasy above, into sex without power play, fun and loving sex.
It is very common for women to enjoy and enthusiastically participate in sex. It is less common for them to take the lead and give instructions, especially with a new partner.
I would recommend that first you just find someone who wants to have sex with you, and spend some time exploring each other, figuring out what the other likes and doesnt like.
Then, try to find someone who is also into your particular kink.
Some women need very specific physical stimulation to achieve orgasm, and it can be easier to get there if they’re in charge or on top. Everyone is different.
Taking the lead, showing initiative and being enthusiastic takes energy. People are lazy. So if you are expected to let someone else do it, then that is an easy choice allot of the time.
Yes there are women all over that enjoy this role from time to time. The more comfortable you are with your partner; the more you can expect to see this behaviour in them.
Males and females are not that different. Your local community might be used to theese roles though.
Worth noting; people offten act the way they think you like them to act. They might think they are expected to wait for you to take charge. As you get familiar, that might change.
Let me shorten that for you: You are a bottom, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Crazy question but have you considered discussing this with your sexual partners?
Okay, okay, you’re not gonna believe this…
I don’t have any.
I never tried to date anyone precisely because I saw the kind of intimacy I wanted as impossible. I always just assumed that anyone I dated would flop over like a dead fish in bed, and that’s just not sexy to me. Up until this point, I believed that my own sexual drives were incompatible with everyone else’s and could only be satisfied through fantasy. Only now am I questioning if this is actually the case.
assumed that anyone I dated would flop over like a dead fish in bed,
Those women do exist. I have dated them. They were raised as you describe yourself being raised, and thought sexual relationships were entirely the man’s job. Sex was something that happened to them, not something they would actively pursue or direct.
Fortunately, the world has all types. You can absolutely find someone who wants the save dynamic you are looking for. Dating is trial-and-error so you’ll have to deal with some duds along the way, but you’ll get there.
Also worth noting that even if someone is a boring lover, if they’re empathetic and they’re into you, then they can get better. It’s all about communication.
Barring obvious psychological baggage.
It’s not common, but it should be.
Most women are passive in the bedroom and really struggle not to be.
I think it’s an extension of the social expectation for women to not take initiative and to instead be coveted.
