The linked post shows how most non-tech people’s understanding of email is very very different from most of the people here.
I really think there is no problem here. There is one side that screeches, “We need more people in Lemmy! Lemmy is too obscure and hard to use! We need better UX and less techno-babble when people are trying to sign on!” We also have the opposite side saying, “Fuck the normies! I want my federated server @tek.know.kult for the most austere obscurantists only!”
Let’s be real, guys. If your federated server is weird and obscure, the normals are not going to really encounter it, and they’re not that into all the federation beef. They want to go to lemmy-website.com, put in a username and password, and fuck off to look at funny memes and rage at news stories.
I would say I am at least on the right side of the bell curve when it comes to tech literacy, maybe even the top quartile, and I only sort of understand how the Fediverse works, and no offense guys, I don’t really care that much. I looked at Reddit for the funny memes and to rage at news stories, and when they took my favorite app away (Sync for Reddit), I couldn’t be fucked to get advert-aids on the official app, so I jumped ship. Lemmy is just a bit less engaging, just a bit less addictive, and frankly I’m perfectly happy with that. Huzzah for having a bit more of a doomscroll-life balance.
People will come along with FOSS as well as CS options for joining the Fediverse, things like Threads and Voyager and BlueSky, and the culture of Lemmy will shift likewise. The great news is that with Federation, it will be easy to create islands of autists and weirdos to keep their purity cults as funny as they want them to be, and I think that’s beautiful.
I don’t think it matters. the specific ways in which email services work or are used are not what the analogy is supposed to explain.
it’s supposed to explain how two people who log in to different lemmy instances is different from logging into Facebook and MySpace, or Twitter and Threads.
"how does it work? aren’t they different sites?’
“you know how you can have a gmail and someone else can use an outlook email but you can still send emails to each other”
done. even 70 year olds would get it. problem solved. easy, approachable analogy.
Exactly this. The second you utter the word “federation” you can see people’s eyes glaze over in real time. The email explainer is good but it really needs to be a short sentence and that’s it
I now after many years of living understand most people don’t care or even want to understand how anything works. It completely baffles me.
Everyone I know says I’m smart but nah, I was literally in special Ed classes in school. I’m proven slower than the rest, but I am just curious and want to understand how things work which no one else does. It blows my mind how uninterested people are in the things they use everyday
They all complain about “Muh Open source UI bad” Ok then what is considered a good UI/UX according to you lot (Not you lot in particular I’m not trying to start any beef here)
& how does one decide that particular UI is User-Friendly ?
A UI can be measured in a bunch of different ways, most of which should be measured and balanced against each other.
I recommend this video essay, where a UX professional (formerly at Microsoft) took over the UX for the FOSS music composing app Musescore and shares a lot of the lessons learned along the way: https://youtu.be/Qct6LKbneKQ
If you want to get non-techy users, then there is absolutely no need to even use the word fediverse or to try to explain what any of this means. If you want to help a friend get onboard, just send them a link to sign up on the same server that you use, or a nice general purpose server. That’s it. They sign up, they use it, and THEN they can start to learn about fediverse shit if they care to.
Don’t explain anything, there’s literally no point. Why are nerds so insistent that people understand technology?
Just tell people to make an account on any instance, whichever one you like best, and let them experience federation. Even if they never really understand what is happening they can still use the service. It’s not like any of them understand how email works, and yet they all use email. Understanding is worthless. Stop being nerds.
Why are nerds so insistent that people understand technology?
Because technology forms the basis of the online environments we inhabit, and gives us the tools to tell how, say, our data is stored and processed.
If you’re going to get in the water, it’s probably a good skill to be able to swim. If you’re going to drive a car and don’t have the faintest idea how the engine works, you’ll be at the mercy of manufacturers and mechanics.
The solution to your issue is not that everybody should conform to the lowest common denominator of technology literacy, but that the general internet user should get a fucking idea of the environment they navigate.
Stop being nerds
Never.
Nerds don’t just want to teach people to swim. They want to teach them about hydrogen bonds and the mineral contents of the water, the processes of water treatment, and the technical requirements for a functional pool.
Nerds don’t just want to teach people to drive. They want to teach them about the engine, the drive train, the underlying transportation infrastructure, and how to change their own oil and tires.
If you want people to swim or drive or use the fediverse you skip all that shit. Normal people do not care.
Stop being nerds.
Well, apparently you consider basic maintenance like changing tires superfluous to driving. Says all I need to know about your mindset on the other subjects.
Stop being
nerdshelplessly unskilledFTFY
The majority of people pay other people to do that stuff. Normal people don’t care about your nerd shit.
I change my oil, oil filter, tires, battery, wipers, all that shit. It doesn’t fucking matter though, it’s all superfluous.
Stop. Being. Nerds. Just let people be basic, stop insisting that they know everything before they’re allowed to drive.
Those other people are nerds too, now you’re gonna tell them to stop being nerds ? Why should incompetent people be rewarded ?
Rewarded?
This is about what is best for getting more people in into the fediverse. I’m telling people to stop being nerds and chasing normies away.
Nerds don’t just want to teach people to drive. They want to teach them about the engine, the drive train, the underlying transportation infrastructure, and how to change their own oil and tires.
Maybe if more people knew how combustion worked and where the gasoline they burn comes from we wouldn’t have as much global warming denialism.
Similarly, if people knew how their posts were served though Facebook, what server costs are, and what their revenue model was, it wouldn’t come as such a surprise to them that their privacy was being violated.
But I think you’re right though. I’ve given up on trying to convince the general public of literally anything, at least in the US where it’s clear the cult of ignorance has soundly won. How can I tell someone that it’s better to use an electric car if they’re not willing to understand the carbon cycle? How can I tell someone it’s better to be vaccinated if they’re not willing to understand herd immunity? How can I tell someone that federated social media is better if they’re unwilling to understand what federation even is?
Nerds don’t just want to teach people to swim. They want to teach them about hydrogen bonds and the mineral contents of the water, the processes of water treatment, and the technical requirements for a functional pool.
And I think that’s beautiful. There is nothing like watching someone explain something they’re passionate about.
There’s something wrong with hurting other people’s ability to access the fediverse with insufferable nerd explanations that have nothing to do with posting.
“hurting”? someone yapping about the fediverse is a minor inconvenience at worst. A TON of people that are on Lemmy don’t know how it works, or even care about how it works, and that’s perfectly OK. Nothing wrong with going on [email protected] and upvoting the cute cat pictures.
So Cars are designed & built by nerds, so are you gonna stop driving cars ? Imagine telling people that you shouldn’t bother trying to learn
I’m telling people that it’s okay to be a normie.
And it is.
Car nerds can be car nerds to support the normies who can only drive.
as soon as you say “make an account” their eyes will glaze over. if not, as soon as they hear “instance” their eyes glaze over. if not, as soon as they hear “whichever one you like best” their eyes will glaze over.
Sorry, you misread what I said 😅
You, the recommender, are the one picking the instance. Whichever one you like best! Don’t bother telling them anything about instances, that’s a waste of time. Just say “go to lemmy.world and post” and don’t bother explaining anything else.
Oh, gotcha, that would be more successful for sure.
LW pretty much made the Lemmyverse almost centralized, thanks to people like you.
And yet I’m the one on lemmy.ml and you’re the one on lemmy.world 🤔
no, I migrated away from LW a few months ago. I am currently on discuss.tchncs.de
I think you confused my current account with the inactive one on LW that I only use for moderating in asklemmy sometimes.
Oops, embarrassing. 😅
I have not been convinced lemmy.world being the largest instance is actually a bad thing. It’s bad for federation, I suppose, but they’re all Redditeurs and I appreciate having a containment zone for them.
I have not been convinced lemmy.world being the largest instance is actually a bad thing. It’s bad for federation, I suppose, but they’re all Redditeurs and I appreciate having a containment zone for them.
Most people here are from reddit or other centralized and enshittified platforms such as Twitter.
LW got recommended often and it created a snowballing effect, which is why it became the biggest lemmy instance. Unfortunately people keep doing it and LW admins refuse to close down their registrations temporarily to allow other instances to get some traffic as well. That’s why some people (like me) advise people (like you) to stop recommending LW over other instances.
And LW is not a “containment” zone for former redditors.
This is how you get people whining about there being 8 different “Politics” groups, and insisting they should be allowed to erase the identity of the hosting website.
The patchwork nature of the fediverse is baked into the technology. If people don’t at least have a basic model for how it behaves, then they’re just going to get pissed off at it and leave.
Ypu don’t need to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive, but you have to understand how driving works, both from the perspective of operating a car, and from that of the conventions of the road.
“Just find a pretty car and hop behind the wheel” is bad advice for everyone.
People have been using email since they were five and all modern lives depend on it. If they don’t understand federation they will just be confused why they can’t see the content and leave. “I didn’t understand it and it didn’t work” is one of the more commons reasons I’ve seen on Reddit for failing lemmy
Doesn’t it default to All? Or at least Local? Shouldn’t they just see a feed of everything if they go to the main page?
The experience is almost exactly the same as Reddit if you don’t worry about federation or technicalities.
I think admins choose, but tbh reddit is also pretty algorithmic these days
But they should still see content, even if they don’t understand anything.
The only way they won’t is if the admins decided users shouldn’t see anything without first subscribing to something, which is a terrible way to ease people in to the service. There needs to be a default feed so normies can use it too!
Unless an instance enrolls in Lemmy-federate, the default behavior is that a user, even on the /all view, will only see local communities, and outside communities that another local user has sought out and subscribed to.
If a newbie joins a small instance and doesn’t know how to seek out communities that interest them with lemmyverse.net, they would likely have a very small range of content in their feed.
Lemmy-federate helps by auto subscribing an instance to participating communities, seeding a wide range of content immediately.
A large instance would offer a good experience either way, but would encourage centralization without Lemmy-federate existing.
Why on Earth would a newbie join a small instance? How would they even find out about one?
Assuming they search Lemmy, and one of top results is the join-lemmy page (second result for me, below Lemmy.world), the server recommendation tool can suggest small instances with only a couple hundred members. For instance, if one selects Art as the topic and English as the language.
"you know how you can’t talk to someone on Twitter.com from facebook.com? But you can email from your @gmail.com to someone with an @yahoo.com address?
That’s the difference, federated social media is like email in this way."
I’m mostly sure even my elderly parents understood it when I said it…
till they throw you the curveball that they can indeed talk to someone on twitter from facebook.
I honestly think it stills explains it pretty well. Most casual users will not download a specific client and will be fine with the whole idea of an instance being tied to its user interface. It still explains pretty well that it doesn’t largely matter what instance you sign up for and that any instance can talk to (mostly) any other instance, just like with email.
So yea, I still think it’s a good analogy. It’s not perfect but yea, that’s to be expected from an analogy.
I’m pretty tech minded and I have no idea what the hell any of y’all mean when you say it’s like email because I don’t know the technical details of how email works. I just know how it’s used.
You think non-tech people are gonna understand that? They’re just gonna assume it is email, in the way it is used; not how the shit works under the hood.
When I make the analogy, I just mean the fact that a Gmail account can send emails to a Yahoo account or any other email provider. In the same way, a Feddit.dk account can talk to a yiffit.net account. There is not a single company controlling email and there is not a single company controlling the fediverse. That’s really all there is to the analogy.
You think non-tech people are gonna understand that?
Yes becase they’re not looking to understand the protocol behind federarion anymore then you dowbt understand the protocol behind email, so they will grok better then you how it works bybusibg the email allegory, sending from gmail to outlook works for them.
I also use the phone network as another allegory if their eyes do glaze over, i can be with one phone company and phone somone on another companies plan. They have little idead of the prorogation of radiowaves etc that makes that all work.
I’m really disappointed with Lemmy’s idea of federation: all it is is a bunch of servers mirroring one another, but the user accounts are server-bound. No jumping instance and taking your identity seamlessly with you.
This isn’t really Lemmy’s idea of federation, it’s just ActivityPub, the underlying protocol. Having a mechanism for jumping servers is unfortunately quite complicated and it isn’t clear how it should be done or if it is even possible.
Lemmy does allow you to export and import your settings though, so you can kinda do it but you lose your history.
AFAIK the Nostr protocsal sorta let’s you hop around, but it’s full to the brimwith cryptobros, and I’m still not sure how moderation works there.
Yea moderation becomes a big problem once you can’t actually block people. I don’t like that Nostr describes itself as censorship resistent or even censorship free, that’s not a good quality.
…
I’m not very familiar with Nostr, but knowing other distributed protocols, you can just hide messages from selected users in client.
censorship resistent or even censorship free, that’s not a good quality.
Also, wtf did I read?
Censorship-free implies that moderation is impossible. If you don’t have moderation, your social media will turn into a Nazi bar.
you can just hide messages from selected users in client
That’s not good enough. First of all, users don’t want to have to block people before having a good experience. Users don’t want to deal with moderation themselves, but they also don’t want mean people, harassment and nazis. It’s not easy to recruit moderators for online forums, not a lot of people want to deal with that stuff.
But secondly, client-level blocking is not effective. It does not stop those bad users from continuing their bad behavior. In the case of Lemmy, it also doesn’t stop their votes from still affecting your feed.
So yes, censorship-free platforms are not good because censorship-free means moderation-free, and users don’t want that.
If you don’t have moderation, your social media will turn into a Nazi bar.
Worse, it will immediately devolve into a CP haven. The dark web is dark for a reason.
I think you (and the Nostr people as well) are just muddling terms here. Censorship is about an external 3rd party (usually the Government) preventing you from seeing things you are potentially interested in, not (as in the case of Lemmy) your service provider and their trusted moderators helping you curate your social media experience. If you are unhappy with the moderation you can easily switch to another instance and use other communities.
I mean I don’t disagree, but that’s clearly not what Nostr means when they say censorship resistent, cause by that logic, Gmail and Facebook are as censorship resistent as Nostr is.
I don’t think there really is a great difference either. Censorship and moderation are just two perspectives on the same thing. One has bad connotations, the other generally good connotations.
Why do CryptoBros live rent-free in your head ? One of Lemmy’s donation methods links to a Cryptocurrency wallet So are you gonna leave Lemmy ?
They’re annoying yes, but can be ignored
ActivityPub spec allows content-addressed IDs, just nobody implemented them and now it’s too late.
The problem as I understand it is basically that user IDs in ActivityPub are intrinsically tied to the domain on which the user registered, so you can’t really move a user from one domain to another.
It’s not true, all ActivityPub IDs are URIs
Yes exactly - those URLs contain the domain name, so you can’t change servers for a user as their ID is tied to the domain.
They can be URNs (like magnet:), as shown above.
Well no they can’t, because that’s not part of ActivityPub. In fact ActivityPub mandates HTTP URLs. Of course, any extension can choose to change that, but since nobody is actually supporting magnet links, it’s not relevant.
This is exactly like email though.
You have a gmail account that is tied to google. You have to login to gmail to access your email but you can email anyone in the world. Some people use different providers so they have different email addresses.
If you want to change providers there is no easy way to do it. You can use imapsync or export to pst and import to new provider and so on, or maybe your new provider gives you tools for importing mail from your old mailbox but it’s not a feature of email protocol(s) to do this.
I didn’t pick my email my employer did. Other then work ionly use email for account verification, password reset and trqcking shipping. No really i have only sent a dozen or so emails not related to work.
One way to help the feediverse is to drop federation. No one uses that word no one knows what it emans. At best they will be “so its like Star trek”.
Lol, I saw “drop federation” and thought you meant the concept itself, not just the word. “Well that doesn’t make any sense” I thought. Got it now.
