Honest question. How do you reconcile your claim about not being anti-lgbt when the GOP is very vocally and openly pushing anti-lgbt messaging and legislation.
You know that someone can agree with most things in a platform and hate other things about it right?
The fact that they said they’re not anti-lgbt instead of saying they’re pro-lgbt implies that lgbt issues in general are lower on their list of priorities. They may not agree with the anti lgbt stuff but it isn’t important to them anyway.
I’m aware of that first part, but I’m not quite sure how it’s possible to make a moral argument that basic human rights shouldn’t be towards the very top of your list. The unfortunate reality of the matter is that even in the off chance your local R isn’t completely awful, the policies that will be implemented on a national level if they manage to take control of the presidency again are. Voting for an R is a tacit endorsement of those policies.
They’re a Republican. They don’t view LGBT issues as a human rights issue in the first place. It’s a political issue for them. Hence why they can reconcile that their opinion vs the party platform.
Again, that’s why they said they’re not anti-lgbt rather than saying they’re pro-lgbt.
They can disagree with the Republican Party on LGBT issues, because it’s a political issue for them and not a human rights issue.
Idk man. It just seems like you’re saying “political issue” but what you mean is “doesn’t affect them”.
And I think the whole they’re not “anti” these people they just don’t care enough about them to vote for them to have basic protections is a tough sell. At some point it’s a forced choice, and sitting out isn’t really an option.
I guess maybe it’s how they truly see it, but it doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.
It just seems like you’re saying “political issue” but what you mean is “doesn’t affect them”.
Yeah, that is exactly what I said and what I meant. It was my point. Thank you for getting the point?
At some point it’s a forced choice, and sitting out isn’t really an option.
Idk, the fact that the Log Cabin Republicans exist kinda proves that it is. Even LGBT people can reconcile Republican ideals and their own LGBT identity. It’s much easier for someone that isn’t LGBT to ignore LGBT issues. And the majority of people wont have someone close to them be LGBT, making it even easier to not care about them.
Yea it is easier for them to ignore. Choosing to ignore it is still a choice. And the effect of that choice is the continued suspension of human rights. There is no true option of sitting out.
The point is framing it as a “political issue” takes the responsibility off of them. Again, it’s true they see it that way, but all I hear is they only care about themselves.
This sounds an awful lot like a repudiation of “vote blue no matter who” but from the opposite angle. The fact of the matter is that different people place different priorities on different issues. Everyone these days seems to think that all people need to have the perfect opinion on every subject but I think that’s crazy. Take the wins you can get and leave the rest for later.
Personally I think that means that Democrats need to bide their time on several issues. If they would make a commitment to let guns, abortion (would have been easier 4 years ago), and LGBT issues lie for an entire election cycle, and make the general electorate believe that’s a real promise, they could get so much other shit done. I know people here are going to start in on how such a statement is unfair to trans people, women, victims of gun violence, etc, but there’s no denying the fact that those issues are sticking points for huge amounts of voters.
You don’t even have to concede any arguments to do what I’m suggesting either. All you need to do is acknowledge that we have other things we could work on before we cross those bridges. If you look at polling data most Americans agree with Democrats on solutions to problems like healthcare, the tax code, and labor laws. If we could implement even semi progressive laws around these issues we would improve the lives of everyone in America, including those most impacted by the issues above. Why would we not do that and then go back to our usual bickering along political lines?
When it comes down to it we’re not gaining anything by insisting on purity tests for these positions that only drive voter engagement for conservatives. Just table them for now and work on what can realistically be accomplished. The alternative is not more progress for more people, it’s more of this culture war bullshit, and that doesn’t help anyone at all. Isn’t that the worst option on the table?
Democrats need to bide their time on several issues… LGBT issues lie for an entire election cycle
The problem is a lot of damage can be done in one election cycle. Just this year so far? 590 anti-trans bills have been proposed and 85 anti-trans bills have passed in the US: https://translegislation.com
And how did those bills get passed? Republicans were able to pass them because some voters are so worried about their guns and drag queen story hour that they refused to vote for Democrats. You’re making my point for me. Anything is better than regression, including no progress at all.
I bet leaving guns alone would be enough by itself but Democrats just can’t stop themselves from poking that beehive even though they know damn well that no meaningful legislation will come from it. They’re not gaining any voters or changing any laws by making it a sticking point but they’re definitely losing voters because of it. If you know you can’t make anything happen then why bring up something that’s only going to hurt you? Fight that battle on the day you can win it and until then keep your mouth shut about it.
I never stated whether I was pro or con guns, so I don’t need the lecture. I was simply pointing out that you can’t just sit out an election cycle when it comes to human rights
Call it what you want, that way of doing things hasn’t seen much of any major progress since the civil rights movement. The moral high ground seems rather pointless to claim if all you’re doing is watching things deteriorate from an elevated position.
I don’t see how putting human rights on hold will somehow make things work any faster, better or more efficiently. My rights as a human are up for grabs, and somehow thats me “watching things deteriorate from an elevated position”? lol, ok buddy. You’re being unreasonably hostile right now so I’m disengaging. Enjoy your holidays if you celebrate them.
You know I voted for Hillary and Biden even though both trashed the idea of Medicare For All. That’s a huge issue for me, but you don’t really get to pick your politicians. You only pick the lesser of two evils. Republicans don’t like Dems. They might not love Trump or even Ted Cruz but for some people that’s their lesser of two evils. So I can’t speak for this other commenter but I can understand why you might vote for someone who doesn’t share your values
And for plenty of policy points that’s not an issue. When we’re on the topic of basic human rights, I’m not entirely sure how you* can handwave those abuses away because you want lower taxes.
Ok so if your choice was between a politician who made LGBT issues their priority but were against medicare for all/socialized medicine, and a politician that made medicare for all/socialized medicine their priority but were against LGBT rights, who would you choose?
Both are human rights issues. Which one is more important to you?
If there’s an answer that isn’t basically “well they’re not on my priority list so they can get fucked”, I’d love to hear it. We’re not talking about some relatively benign issue like zoning laws or whether or not we should introduce a new sales tax to fund the park system. Sitting by complacently is actively tacitly supporting the policies trying to further these abuses, and it’s not some trivial issue that doesn’t matter.
Neo-libs may not be, but there are plenty of us who are adamant that the workers shall not be disarmed.
Ignoring that…
The gop is unintionally better for lgbtq than the dnc
Only one is actively imposing legislation that oppresses the lgptq community. If you honestly believe that, I beg you to take an actual hard, honest look at the legislation the GOP has passed in the last 6 years. You’ll find that’s just simply not true. Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself.
Are there individuals within the GOP who don’t support those things? Perhaps, but they’re clearly at least not opposed to them. Unfortunately the “old guard” have decided they’d rather let the complete and utter batshit insane corner of the party drive the platform. It’s time to realize that.
Yeah, I probably should’ve said gop and dnc, and adjusted the wording slightly.
I would argue that any right is meaningless without 2a to back it up. Thus, any rights given by the DNC aren’t real. They aren’t worth the paper it’s written on.
And while in most scenarios I’d agree, we’re not talking hypothetical scenarios anymore. The GOP doesn’t care about you or your rights. They made that clear when a group of them attempted a coup, and the whole did absolutely nothing to condemn it. All over losing a single presidential election. Anything promised by a group that tried to throw our entire republic away isn’t worth shit either.
People can have different opinions to what is important and what is not. If someone try to censor every online forum in order to protect people from cyber crimes and financially support North Korean government even though time and time it has been proven that it doesn’t go well, fuck up all the housing crisis even more, but is the only candidate who (remotely) supports LGBTQ, I’m not voting them, which is exactly the case in my country.
There are other important aspects of people’s lives and you can’t just go around and say your priorities are wrong. You can however argue about the reasoning that led to said priorities and initial opinion, which is exactly what people are talking to you.
I look at the actual things that are said, theres usually a video, and realize that nothing they said was anti anything. At best you could say they werent taking lgbtq issues seriously enough, which imo is not the same as being anti-lgbt.
The exception is trans people not being allowed to play sports with their gender, but thats more about unfair advantages, which tbh feels like a solid reason.
You must have a much higher tolerance for glacial paced change than I do.
As someone who is aggressively pro-2a (although almost certainly for different reasons than you), I might have been able to legitimately see your point 10 years ago when the GOP was less actively hostile to the very existence of gay people. Unfortunately we don’t live in 2013 anymore.
Honest question. How do you reconcile your claim about not being anti-lgbt when the GOP is very vocally and openly pushing anti-lgbt messaging and legislation.
You know that someone can agree with most things in a platform and hate other things about it right?
The fact that they said they’re not anti-lgbt instead of saying they’re pro-lgbt implies that lgbt issues in general are lower on their list of priorities. They may not agree with the anti lgbt stuff but it isn’t important to them anyway.
I’m aware of that first part, but I’m not quite sure how it’s possible to make a moral argument that basic human rights shouldn’t be towards the very top of your list. The unfortunate reality of the matter is that even in the off chance your local R isn’t completely awful, the policies that will be implemented on a national level if they manage to take control of the presidency again are. Voting for an R is a tacit endorsement of those policies.
They’re a Republican. They don’t view LGBT issues as a human rights issue in the first place. It’s a political issue for them. Hence why they can reconcile that their opinion vs the party platform.
Again, that’s why they said they’re not anti-lgbt rather than saying they’re pro-lgbt.
They can disagree with the Republican Party on LGBT issues, because it’s a political issue for them and not a human rights issue.
Idk man. It just seems like you’re saying “political issue” but what you mean is “doesn’t affect them”.
And I think the whole they’re not “anti” these people they just don’t care enough about them to vote for them to have basic protections is a tough sell. At some point it’s a forced choice, and sitting out isn’t really an option.
I guess maybe it’s how they truly see it, but it doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.
Yeah, that is exactly what I said and what I meant. It was my point. Thank you for getting the point?
Idk, the fact that the Log Cabin Republicans exist kinda proves that it is. Even LGBT people can reconcile Republican ideals and their own LGBT identity. It’s much easier for someone that isn’t LGBT to ignore LGBT issues. And the majority of people wont have someone close to them be LGBT, making it even easier to not care about them.
Yea it is easier for them to ignore. Choosing to ignore it is still a choice. And the effect of that choice is the continued suspension of human rights. There is no true option of sitting out.
The point is framing it as a “political issue” takes the responsibility off of them. Again, it’s true they see it that way, but all I hear is they only care about themselves.
This sounds an awful lot like a repudiation of “vote blue no matter who” but from the opposite angle. The fact of the matter is that different people place different priorities on different issues. Everyone these days seems to think that all people need to have the perfect opinion on every subject but I think that’s crazy. Take the wins you can get and leave the rest for later.
Personally I think that means that Democrats need to bide their time on several issues. If they would make a commitment to let guns, abortion (would have been easier 4 years ago), and LGBT issues lie for an entire election cycle, and make the general electorate believe that’s a real promise, they could get so much other shit done. I know people here are going to start in on how such a statement is unfair to trans people, women, victims of gun violence, etc, but there’s no denying the fact that those issues are sticking points for huge amounts of voters.
You don’t even have to concede any arguments to do what I’m suggesting either. All you need to do is acknowledge that we have other things we could work on before we cross those bridges. If you look at polling data most Americans agree with Democrats on solutions to problems like healthcare, the tax code, and labor laws. If we could implement even semi progressive laws around these issues we would improve the lives of everyone in America, including those most impacted by the issues above. Why would we not do that and then go back to our usual bickering along political lines?
When it comes down to it we’re not gaining anything by insisting on purity tests for these positions that only drive voter engagement for conservatives. Just table them for now and work on what can realistically be accomplished. The alternative is not more progress for more people, it’s more of this culture war bullshit, and that doesn’t help anyone at all. Isn’t that the worst option on the table?
The problem is a lot of damage can be done in one election cycle. Just this year so far? 590 anti-trans bills have been proposed and 85 anti-trans bills have passed in the US: https://translegislation.com
And how did those bills get passed? Republicans were able to pass them because some voters are so worried about their guns and drag queen story hour that they refused to vote for Democrats. You’re making my point for me. Anything is better than regression, including no progress at all.
I bet leaving guns alone would be enough by itself but Democrats just can’t stop themselves from poking that beehive even though they know damn well that no meaningful legislation will come from it. They’re not gaining any voters or changing any laws by making it a sticking point but they’re definitely losing voters because of it. If you know you can’t make anything happen then why bring up something that’s only going to hurt you? Fight that battle on the day you can win it and until then keep your mouth shut about it.
I never stated whether I was pro or con guns, so I don’t need the lecture. I was simply pointing out that you can’t just sit out an election cycle when it comes to human rights
Call it what you want, that way of doing things hasn’t seen much of any major progress since the civil rights movement. The moral high ground seems rather pointless to claim if all you’re doing is watching things deteriorate from an elevated position.
I don’t see how putting human rights on hold will somehow make things work any faster, better or more efficiently. My rights as a human are up for grabs, and somehow thats me “watching things deteriorate from an elevated position”? lol, ok buddy. You’re being unreasonably hostile right now so I’m disengaging. Enjoy your holidays if you celebrate them.
You know I voted for Hillary and Biden even though both trashed the idea of Medicare For All. That’s a huge issue for me, but you don’t really get to pick your politicians. You only pick the lesser of two evils. Republicans don’t like Dems. They might not love Trump or even Ted Cruz but for some people that’s their lesser of two evils. So I can’t speak for this other commenter but I can understand why you might vote for someone who doesn’t share your values
And for plenty of policy points that’s not an issue. When we’re on the topic of basic human rights, I’m not entirely sure how you* can handwave those abuses away because you want lower taxes.
* generic you
Many many people believe that healthcare is a basic human right, right up there with LGBT issues.
Putting Medicare for all on the same footing or higher than LGBT issues, because healthcare affects literally everyone.
Well yeah, that’s because it is. Performing human sacrifices for the profit gods, which is what we are currently doing, is bad.
Ok so if your choice was between a politician who made LGBT issues their priority but were against medicare for all/socialized medicine, and a politician that made medicare for all/socialized medicine their priority but were against LGBT rights, who would you choose?
Both are human rights issues. Which one is more important to you?
When that situation happens I guess we’ll find out.
It won’t though, and is a fucking laughable attempt at a gotcha
Are you looking for conversation here or do you just want to be right?
If there’s an answer that isn’t basically “well they’re not on my priority list so they can get fucked”, I’d love to hear it. We’re not talking about some relatively benign issue like zoning laws or whether or not we should introduce a new sales tax to fund the park system. Sitting by complacently is actively tacitly supporting the policies trying to further these abuses, and it’s not some trivial issue that doesn’t matter.
The right is pro-2a. The left is not.
The lgbtq should arm themselves, before anything else.
The gop is unintionally better for lgbtq than the dnc.
Neo-libs may not be, but there are plenty of us who are adamant that the workers shall not be disarmed.
Ignoring that…
Only one is actively imposing legislation that oppresses the lgptq community. If you honestly believe that, I beg you to take an actual hard, honest look at the legislation the GOP has passed in the last 6 years. You’ll find that’s just simply not true. Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself.
Are there individuals within the GOP who don’t support those things? Perhaps, but they’re clearly at least not opposed to them. Unfortunately the “old guard” have decided they’d rather let the complete and utter batshit insane corner of the party drive the platform. It’s time to realize that.
Yeah, I probably should’ve said gop and dnc, and adjusted the wording slightly.
I would argue that any right is meaningless without 2a to back it up. Thus, any rights given by the DNC aren’t real. They aren’t worth the paper it’s written on.
And while in most scenarios I’d agree, we’re not talking hypothetical scenarios anymore. The GOP doesn’t care about you or your rights. They made that clear when a group of them attempted a coup, and the whole did absolutely nothing to condemn it. All over losing a single presidential election. Anything promised by a group that tried to throw our entire republic away isn’t worth shit either.
That is a far more pressing concern. Far more.
You’ve said some stupid shit but “The gop is unintentionally better for lgbtq than the dnc.” takes the cake.
The DNC is trying to disarm lgbtq. The GOP isn’t.
What else is there to say?
Are you allowed to shoot at cops? No.
Can you shoot politicians who are taking away your HUMAN rights? No.
What planet do you live on where owning your silly handgun or shotgun is going to protect you from the big bad government?
The GOP is actively trying to take human rights away from LGBTQ+ people. In fact, they don’t even believe they are human.
So yes, thinking the gop is good in any way for people who aren’t straight white Christians is 100% the most idiotic take I’ve seen from you yet.
People can have different opinions to what is important and what is not. If someone try to censor every online forum in order to protect people from cyber crimes and financially support North Korean government even though time and time it has been proven that it doesn’t go well, fuck up all the housing crisis even more, but is the only candidate who (remotely) supports LGBTQ, I’m not voting them, which is exactly the case in my country.
There are other important aspects of people’s lives and you can’t just go around and say your priorities are wrong. You can however argue about the reasoning that led to said priorities and initial opinion, which is exactly what people are talking to you.
I look at the actual things that are said, theres usually a video, and realize that nothing they said was anti anything. At best you could say they werent taking lgbtq issues seriously enough, which imo is not the same as being anti-lgbt.
The exception is trans people not being allowed to play sports with their gender, but thats more about unfair advantages, which tbh feels like a solid reason.
I look at the actions. The GOP is (more than the DNC at least) pro-2a and pro-free speech. When you have those two, the rest follow naturally.
Yes, I believe the GOP is unintentionally better for lgbtq people and their rights than the DNC.
You must have a much higher tolerance for glacial paced change than I do.
As someone who is aggressively pro-2a (although almost certainly for different reasons than you), I might have been able to legitimately see your point 10 years ago when the GOP was less actively hostile to the very existence of gay people. Unfortunately we don’t live in 2013 anymore.