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You know, I’ve never really had an opinion on Israel. As far as I knew they were pretty chill but after all this genocide? yeah man, fuckem
Hamas is nothing compared to Israel’s military. If Hamas’s goal is the destruction of Israel, then this has been their most effective campaign by far. I, too, didn’t think much about Israel one way or the other but this conflict has opened my eyes.
and palestine
Tank shells. Against an adversary that doesn’t have tanks.
They classified encryption as a munition so now they can just classify journalists as a tank. Problem solved.
Tanks are mobile artillery. They’re not only designed for fighting other tanks.
What you’re talking about is a self-propelled gun. An SPG is not an MBT. That’s like saying a Baja trophy truck is the same as a McLaren Le Mans endurance prototype are the same because they both have 4 wheels and are fast.
You can use a tank as indirect fire support, but that is absolutely not what they are designed to do, and they aren’t nearly as good at it as dedicated platforms.
And moreover, Israel is fighting in urban environments. Urban environments eat tanks alive. This is stupid on multiple logistical, geopolitical, and ethical levels.
Artillery isn’t only indirect fires the category of direct fire artillery exists. Tanks only get eaten alive in urban environments when they’re poorly supported. The US has used tanks in urban areas from Hue to Baghdad without problems.
Tanks’ primary role is infantry support and for that job they have a big gun. You know what’s useful when there’s a bunch of guys holed up in a city building, firing at you? A really big gun you can point directly at them and give them hell.
Tanks are direct fire support. Israel has been effectively using tanks in Gaza for years.
This is a super weird fight to pick.
And we can’t do this for Ukraine because?
Because Israel is more profitable of course. Whatever “justifications” the US uses for war are always just excuses to earn the ruling capitalist class more profit.
Capitalism just follows the money. Though if there’s enough protests and riots at home, the cost of managing that would outweigh the profit of genocoding native Palestinians.
And we can’t do this for Ukraine because?
Because Israel is more profitable of course.
Supporting Ukraine would benefit those same companies so I’m not sure what you’re on about.
I think he’s saying Israel has more money to buy the weapons.
Strengthening Israel’s military also gives them more power and influence over the oil in the middle east, and keeps the countries from uniting against the imperial core.
Because our government is bought by AIPAC
Because Republicans
No, this specifically goes around the House and Senate.
It’s clear many of them are owned by Putin, Trump practically kissed his ring in Helsinki.
Meanwhile Israel unequivocally killed a journalist with a tank shell. https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-LEBANON/JOURNALIST/akveabxrzvr/
Israel is not investigating nor punishing, so it’s an actual war crime then. Will Biden put ANY restrictions on weapons to Israel?
No. He’s been real clear about that. Neither will Trump.
Short of armed insurrection, US subjects have no control on this one. The ones that are arming for insurrection also support the genocide. FML
Israel is not investigating
The article you linked says they are:
In the days after the attack, Israel’s military said it was reviewing what had happened, but it has not made any findings public.
Now do Ukraine.
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There’s been a lot of posts about Palestinians and Muslims seriously arguing sitting out the next presidential election. To all the ppl who constantly argue how stupid and reactionary doing so is, what exactly are they suppose to do?
Simply vote for the man who is actively supplying the weapons to kill your family/kill ppl just like you because Trump is a giant bigot? Thankfully i don’t have to make such a decision but I wouldn’t blame anyone (especially the family of a dead relative bombed by Israel) to sit this next election out.
For Muslims and Palestinians this next election is a Murderer vs a Murdering racist
They’re supposed to realize Trump will have a Muslim ban and take away their rights and then go full on genocide using US troops to help Isreal do it more efficiently and then probably throw all Muslims into camps to be reconditioned or worked to death. I don’t know what they expect biden to do, I don’t claim to understand geopolitics but I’m pretty sure it would be a disaster for the US to end relations with Isreal.
Yeah and that’s a problem for Biden to solve. If he wants to avert the disaster then he should stop his support for Israel.
Yeah and that’s a problem for Biden to solve
If Trump wins, Biden cannot stop Trump’s Muslim ban. Trump has said he will deport Muslims. If that’s what you want, vote for Trump.
If this is not what Biden wants, he shouldn’t support a genocide.
Your choice is selling weapons to Israel under Biden, or immediate deportation of Muslims under Trump to be killed by Trump’s US troops.
That’s the choice. You can scream and say, “But but but, what if the world were different. What if we could somehow make the world different?”
Too bad.
I think it’s horrible but if Trump wins and he carries out his plan to deport and kill Muslims, I’ll laugh at you fools just like those who didn’t vote for Gore in 2000. But really you are a Putin puppet so whatever.
Oh? I thought it was the choice of the people… The people may not want to vote for another genocide supporter. Maybe they won’t vote at all?
In your version of this, Biden gets away with anything just because Trump exists. You don’t want Trump to win? Why not run independently? 😬
That’s what I said, the choice of the people is between Biden who will let Israel buy weapons and Trump who has said he will be dictator for a day to deport Muslims, just like he did before.
“In the wake of the attacks on Israel, Americans have been disgusted to see the open support for terrorists among the legions of foreign nationals on college campuses. They’re teaching your children hate,” he said. “Under the Trump administration, we will revoke the student visas of radical anti-American and antisemitic foreigners at our colleges and universities and we will send them straight back home.” -Donald Trump Oct 17 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/17/trump-muslim-ban-gaza-refugees
In response, Israel has been shelling Gaza and carrying out airstrikes that have killed thousands of Palestinians:
“Sometimes you have to let things play out.”
-Donald Trump 11/10/23
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4304401-trump-israel-hamas-war-let-things-play-out/
Not voting is you proclaiming, “But but but what if the world was nicer to me!”
No step on snek
Simply vote for the man who is actively supplying the weapons to kill your family/kill ppl just like you because Trump is a giant bigot and would do the exact same if not worse?
FTFY.
But to answer your question, yes. In America 99.99% of the time we have to vote for the fractionally lesser of two evils and Biden is that. Not voting IS voting for Trump. It is a stupid selfish thing that does nothing for no one. Giving in to apathy by not voting is giving up on democracy and right now we are either voting to continue democracy or giving in to fascism.
Just to be clear I don’t endorse what the US is letting Israel do to Gaza and Palestinians and I’ve let my local representatives know this. I also wish there was someone other than Trump or Biden who had any chance at all of winning the next presidential election.
It is a stupid selfish thing that does nothing for no one. Giving in to apathy by not voting is giving up on democracy and right now we are either voting to continue democracy or giving in to fascism.
This comment is stupid selfish. Choosing not to vote for an administration that supplied the weapons that killed your family is the exact opposite of apathy.
Thereby helping the candidate who wants to enthusiastically bomb said family and assist Israel in annexing remaining lands, I suppose that will end this conflict, but not in the way they want.
Choosing not to vote for an administration that supplied the weapons that killed your family is the exact opposite of apathy
I guess we’ll lose the votes of all seven people this possibly applies to
Third party, unironically.
inb4 helping the other side/first-past/throwing votes/electoral college. Gotta show em this is what happens when they are ignored.
I totally agree. It will hurt, but this lesser-evil bullshit needs to end.
Blame everyone who votes for ‘moderate’ democrats. Not the people who refuse to ‘fall in line.’
Yep. People wanna act like votes are deserved. Votes are earned and if the party hasnt shown they earn them they dont get them. Full stop.
Maybe instead of a candidate that gives you everything you want, a candidate that gives you most of what you want and is viable is a more reasonable expectation.
Except there isn’t anyone like that. Oh wait, there is. 3rd party. But then we’ll just be going in a circle again.
You forgot the viable part.
Moderate Democrat isn’t a bad word, and a more centrist candidate implies broad support. It’s easy to forget that on the fediverse, where the Overton window is way left of normal society.
No, it wholeheartedly is.
There is no liberal party in the US. Only conservative, and slightly less-conservative.
It’s funny how the us has redefined liberalism to mean something else, because both parties generally could be considered liberal, perhaps one more liberal and one slightly less:
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights. Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.
I suspect you mean social or new deal liberalism, which defines Democrats but not Republicans.
You are correct.
I don’t like the word liberal nor using it. Unfortunately, it has come to mean a point between conservatives and their dissenters.
Democrats, liberal, leftist, none of these really apply to what I am really talking about.
I think Progressive is the best, most accurate term. Other nations have parties that are more “Progressive” than “Liberal.”
It’s another reason why I’m a huge fan of talking specifics, not generalities.
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The lies people who vote third party tell themselves to justify their actions are astounding. You know the game, you know the rules and you know the consequences but still you do the wrong thing and pat yourself on the back and think yourself some sort of hero.
“If you don’t vote Republican or Republican-lite, you’re doing the wrong thing!” Jesus what a braindead take.
Renegade +5
Ditto!
It will hurt, but this lesser-evil bullshit needs to end.
Lmao if your plan works your life is going to get so much worse and I just don’t understand how you see that as a win
Okay.
The place to do this is in the primaries, unironically. After that you are voting for the better of two candidates and any vote outside of that is still a decision between two candidates.
Yeah but what about the democrats using superdelegates and general fuckery to get Bernie out in 2016? I know they changed the superdelegate system at some point but still. Only time I’ve seen an outsider actually decimate and forcibly enter the party was Trump. And even then he still capitulated to general Republican beliefs.
Plus the current democrat primary is just a hippy, biden, someone nobody has heard of and Cenk who 99% will get disqualified since the dude wasn’t born in the US. I mean there’s a chance Manchin might run but he’s probably gonna go independent/No Labels.
This year we have an incumbent, there were a huge number of candidates in the Democratic primary race for president before 2020, many dropped out before voting because they were not viable, you are totally misrepresenting the primary process.
The Democrats did not need superdelegates in the end to reject Bernie in 2016. There’s also some significant evidence that Bernie was supported by Russian disinformation in an effort to get President Trump elected. That same disinformation effort that was seeking to discredit US elections in both parties and led to January 6th.
So what? The Russians support anything to sow discord. Just like Democrats supporting extremist Republican candidates to cause mayhem. It’s literally just a facet of American politics and vice versa (American government supporting radical candidates elsewhere). Bernie’s campaign was one of the most progressive the democrats had seen in forever. Even far more progressive than anyone in the squad.
Course these days the guy’s a joke but I don’t feel like going into his ‘fall from grace’.
The so what is that your perception of him being wronged specifically comes from Russian disinformation in an effort to suppress the vote in the general election. This was overall a successful campaign.
He simply lost. It was the most successful progressive campaign since John Edwards.
Yeah, I mean, even with what the dems/media did against him he did still lose. And he did do stupid stuff on the campaign, irelevant of whoever funded him. He had avenues to continue on and cause damage, such as accepting the green party nomination with Jill Stein (yes I know about the ‘possible’ russian connection there) but alas he just backed down.
I guess I’ll look into the russian disinfo with Bernie then. Far as I was previously aware there was just some screwy things with the Bernie bros but that was it. Don’t know much about his 2020 campaign but I didn’t really take that seriously anyways.
inb4 helping the other side/first-past/throwing votes/electoral college
So you know all the reasons why what you choose to do is wrong but do it anyway?
Gotta show em this is what happens when they are ignored.
You already admitted that’s not what you are actually accomplishing but I guess lying to yourself makes you feel better.
Yeah sure. Vote democrat. Nothings ever gonna change. Not now. Not ever.
If voting Democrat isn’t going to change anything, voting third party is definitely not going to change anything. Might as well make the higher percentage play, which is voting Democrat.
Sure. Keep up the defeatism. It’s what those in power want. This is probably the only American thing I will never understand.
The only ones peddling defeatism here are the ones advocating for the greater evil because the aren’t getting everything they want.
You want to give up, throw your vote away voting for some third party crank and somehow I’m the defeatist? I want some of whatever you’re smoking because it sounds really strong.
I can’t continue with this line of reasoning. You are the one whos equating voting third party with not voting and apathy. Nothing will change in the States. Never ever.
“Instead of voting for the guy who’s going to support this shitty country which is on the verge of genocide, I’m going to effectively cast a vote for the guy who’s going to support that shitty country and encourage them to commit genocide, in addition to pursuing genocide and the dismantling of democracy here at home.”
For Muslims and Palestinians this next election is a Murderer vs a Murdering racist
If “supports terrible country” is enough to make a president a murderer, then there hasn’t been a non-murderer president in the history of our country, and, quite possible, in the history of any country of note or significance.
Careful. You’re saying the quiet part outloud.
This is Biden fault not American voters. He chooses to ignore voters and choose to ignore problems. Voters shouldn’t be blamed for the correct policies people want.
Speaking as someone who is strongly anti-Israel, the idea that American voters are opposed to military aid to Israel is just… not connected with reality.
That’s because us regular people aren’t in control of the country. Our leadership is akin to what you see in professional wrestling, you have “the heel” and “the face.” One group pretends to be the bad guys and the other pretends to be the good guys, but they’re really all friends who hang out in the same circles behind the scenes. What they present to the public is all an act.
This is also not connected with reality. Their interests often align, but they seldom hang out together. In the past this happened a lot more.
Honestly? They should either abstain or vote for a third party.
I’ll preface this by saying that I’m not a US citizen, so what I say below is NOT advice. It’s simply my thoughts to (almost) play devil’s advocate for the benefit of discussion!
I’m well aware of the ‘cowardice’ of abstaining in this election. Yes, Trump has the potential to do harm to Muslims tomorrow, but Biden is harming them today. Trump currently hates Netenyahu, wants him impeached and disagrees with his actions in Gaza (yes it’s because of a petty reason but that’s Trump’s MO!)
Biden is running again, and he is a self-proclaimed Zionist who supports Israel on a personal level, not only politically.
As much as many others want to avoid a second Trump term, voting for Biden means you support him, and support his actions. There’s nothing in your vote that separates you from those who unequivocally agree with what he’s doing in Gaza. If Biden wins and then he continues to assist in genocide in Gaza, then that’s directly related to the democrat vote.
If democrats know they’ll lose the election with Biden, they need to front another candidate fast. Failure to do so is accepting defeat.
To all the ppl who constantly argue how stupid and reactionary doing so is, what exactly are they suppose to do?
“Fall in line.”
They want history to continue to repeat itself because they’re constantly on the winning side.
The greater evil appreciates your self defeating obstinance.
I’m sure they do, along with the lesser one.
No, your mischaracterizations are not helping them.
The number of Muslims who voted for Trump actually increased between 2016 and 2020.
Islam is a deeply conservative religion so this tracks.
To all the ppl who constantly argue how stupid and reactionary doing so is, what exactly are they suppose to do?
Choose the lesser evil, support more palatable candidates in future primaries, work to reform our elections so they are not first-past-the-post, encourage one’s family/ppl just like them to put pressure on their leaders to end intifada and make concessions for a viable peace.
but I wouldn’t blame anyone (especially the family of a dead relative bombed by Israel) to sit this next election out.
Choosing the greater evil is a terrible idea and it won’t work out well for them.
Choosing the lesser evil put them in their current situation. We’re talking about ENTIRE families, multiple generations being killed and ppl are asking them to toe the line with no possible repercussions to Democrat’s.
it won’t work out well for them.
I fail to see how anything could be worse than your entire family, culture, and country/home being turned into a parking lot. Except all that happening and ppl telling you it could be worse
I fail to see how anything could be worse than your entire family, culture, and country/home being turned into a parking lot. Except all that happening and ppl telling you it could be worse
The Biden administration is encouraging Israel to show restraint, minimize body count, and target military targets. Trump would relish punitive bombings that target civilians and Israeli annexations. He’s already said he’s bringing back the Muslim ban. If there’s still people that can die, land that has yet to be turned into parking lots, and freedoms to be lost, there’s plenty of good reasons.
Working to usurp Biden to aid Trump is the political equivalent of suicide bombing; if they carry out the threat it will certainly damage them more, but they’re taking the rest of us out with them if they don’t get what they want.
The Biden administration is encouraging Israel to show restraint, minimize body count, and target military targets.
Yeah and the bombings of hospitals, mosques, civilian neighborhoods and the 17000+ dead really show Bidens hard work.
but they’re taking the rest of us out with them if they don’t get what they want.
That’s what it fundamentally comes down to. The selfishness that defines America. They’re suppose to suck it up and fall in line for Biden because the opposite outcome takes you down too. The ppl ultimately responsible for voting in Trump are ppl that vote for him. If you want Muslims and Palestinians to vote maybe your argument shouldnt be the guy not killing your family is so much worse, you’re so stupid.
And for the record I’m not calling for a boycott on voting but I’m not going to demonize Palestinians or Muslim Americans for sitting out this election.
The ppl ultimately responsible for voting in Trump are ppl that vote for him
And the people who stay home or waste votes on candidates who are not viable. Can’t ignore the realities of our system.
Yeah cuz the urgings from Biden are helping so much lmao
Perhaps encouragement from Trump will be more effective.
Sadly that will be making a statement and handing the country back to a wannabe dictator and worse conditions for them in particular.
Maybe democrats should nominate someone who isn’t just the ‘lesser-evil’ if they’re so afraid of losing voters.
But nah. Just “fall in line” and blame everyone else who doesn’t, lol.
I don’t like it any more than you do. I hate our party system.
As is always the case when it comes to elections, choosing to not vote for the lesser evil is just voting for the greater evil
Which is unfortunate because it then becomes a matter of “I am voting against the candidate I don’t like” rather than “I am voting for the candidate I like”, and the voice of the people get lost.
Welcome to FPTP voting. System is working as designed.
While I would certainly love to see us replace FPTP, I’m not sure it would change much. Democrats have had two good bites at the apple of picking a progressive candidate in the last two Presidential Election cycles. The second bite even had several options across a spectrum of progressiveness. The moderate, old, white guy candidate won overwhelmingly both times.
We need more than a change in voting systems. We need a change in views.
In a healthy democracy, the second part of voting would come into play: You contact your local representative, and tell them what you want them to do. If enough of a representatives constituents directly voice their disapproval, the representative is forced to act, or else lose those voters. Its essentially lobbying, but leveraging your vote directly.
The caveats of course are that it doesnt work well for minorities, and you need a healthy functioning democracy, so, your mileage may vary :(
Yep and we wind up in the exact situation we’re in as a country currently. These people are demanding that you keep the status quo.
Always been that way, unfortunately
That voice exists in primaries and local elections. The general is for strategic voting. It’s how all party politics works.
Do you want someone enabling genocide or someone who will enact a genocide? Both suck but equating them is beyond idiocy.
What’s beyond idiocy is defending either one of those two positions.
Paragon +5
Its fine if people decide to not vote, but not voting basically takes away their right to complain about the policies of the winner. I mean, they still can complain and have the legal right to, but they had a chance to make their case via voting and they specifically chose to not do so.
Its like being offered a drink, specifically choosing not to answer, and then complaining later about how you did/didn’t get a drink you wanted. Like, you can do that, but you’re only making a clown of yourself if you do.
I am not implying any particular politician is any better than another, as I personally believe all politicians are equally bad just in different flavors. What politics people choose to participate in is totally their choice, at least here in the USA, but that comes with accepting that not participating in politics means you cannot suddenly claim to have a stake in a race you never participated in.
Not voting strategically is just about as useless as not voting in this system
Simply vote for the man who is actively supplying the weapons to kill your family/kill ppl just like you
Yes. The same way Russians are overwhelmingly Christian and yet US Christians should support war against them
Not sure why anyone on the planet would feel any solidarity with Hamas.
You realize that regardless of what the US does, they’re going to be hated by one side or the other. There is no winning this diplomatically.
So we’re going to vote based on which candidate will turn OUR country into a dictatorship, and which one won’t.
And maybe… just maybe- it’s not the US’s problem to begin with. Thats a war that’s gone on for a LONG fucking time.
I agree that they’ll be criticized either way, though it is debatable which would have the worst outcome.
That being said, the US was a major driving force for the creation of Israel, has armed and funded them since, and has protected Israel in the Security Council preventing any international check on their actions . So, most certainly, it was not the US’s problem to begin with, but given US foreign policy for the past 70 years it is inextricably linked to the problem now.
The US didn’t start their war. That’s my point. They have no business being part of EITHER side.
“Murdering racist”
Got any more myopic, reactionary blasphemy in there?
Lol what?
You attek God now answer
What’s the emergency, is Russia invading Israel next?
Israel is currently at war.
“War” isn’t really a fitting word for committing genocide against unarmed civilians for being the wrong ethno-religious group on land you intend to steal.
Just a reminder if you take Zyrtec in the USA that the liquid gel caps ones are made in Israel but the childrens liquid is made in Switzerland. Avoid Israeli products when you can
Boycotting Israeli products is one of the only things you can do, since the US government seems complicit.
Genocidan biden
I think I’ll vote for Trump next election. Tired of this ‘lesser-evil’ bullshit.
Blame the liberals who keep voting for “moderates.”
And here we have a true fucking moron.
🥱
Got a problem with me? Nominate better candidates! It’s a win-win for all.
The problem is definitely with you, mate, if you think voting trump is somehow a better alternative. Fucking braindead.
Ok.
I’m so tired of people saying not voting for biden is completely equivalent to voting for trump, but this is stupid.
It’s because of the view of Not voting for Hillary over what the DNC did help give us trump. People are too afraid of GOP to vote third party or even more progressive dems.
Well, what we’ve been doing thus far hasn’t been working.
Only a fool would keep trying the same thing but expecting different results.
I think the real stupid ones are the people voting for the ‘lesser-evil.’ Maybe if they lost a few elections they’d change their tune.
Funny how it’s always progressive’s fault, though. If a moderate loses? Progressive’s fault for not ‘falling in line.’ If a progressive loses, though, nobody will blame the moderate for not ‘falling in line.’ If a Progressive wins, nobody is going to acknowledge it’s because they were progressive.
It’s a lose-lose all around, and that’s by design. I’d rather stop pretending that the lesser-evil leads to improvements because it does not. They’re both just looking out for different rich people, and in many cases the same.
I agree with and understand a lot of your frustrations, as they are also my frustrations.
But you basically said “I’m tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, so now I will vote for the greater of two evils.” Just vote 3rd party or something, and try to not take it personally when people are assholes about elections.
Yeah, I could vote 3rd party.
I guess it would depend on how flippant the establishment democrats and their constituency are behaving.
Sadly the reality of a two party state system makes it so.
The two party problem as a result of first past the post means that not voting against the party you dislike more can result in a spoiler effect, and reduce the chances of the not-as-bad mainstream party winning the election. But, I reject that that spoiler effect is necessarily as bad as voting directly for the worse candidate, it is mathematically untrue. Many people try to insist they are equivalent to try and motivate voting, but I think it has the opposite effect, making people feel apathetic about the entire voting process.
Under first past the post we cannot be free of the biases of the system that enforces two parties, BUT it is possible to rarely, with a big movement of people, swap a third party with on of the major parties to replace it as a major party. The way I see voting 3rd party in situations like this is like the prisonor’s dilemma. People are motivated individually to cast their votes strategically for the major party they prefer by the spoiler effect, but if enough people collectively vote 3rd party then the outcome would be better for everyone. Thus, I cannot agree with or accept people claiming voting third party is unacceptable. It might not be likely to be effective, but it is hopeful and not nearly as misguided as people try to insist it is.
Also, Idk if this even applies to me, I’ll probably be using my vote strategically. I just support people’s right to vote 3rd party.
I think you’re right.
So vote for the greater evil? I mean Trump’s stated position on Gaza is to “let it play out” so he’s for the genocide as well. He also promised to reject any refugees from Gaza.
He’s also a nihilist, on top of being as much of a lying sack-of-shit as any other politician you can name.
So if you’re voting for Trump, it’s certainly not because you care about Gaza.
Oh, Trump, yeah the guy that think Russia is the ‘lesser-evil’.
