• muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    This is a very deceptive headline a majority of australians support the idea of a reccomandary body for indiginouse peoples (the voice what was proposed). However, the reason i beleive it failed is because it would have direcrly made a devision of race within our constitution. I would define any devision of race regardless of purpose as textbook racism but i seem to get a lot of pushback from such an idea. I think the thing that ultumatly caused it to fail was not the concept but the unesaasary implementation within the constitution.

    • MüThyme@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Solving systemic racial injustice is an inherently one sided thing, and that isn’t racist or divisive.

      What is racist and divisive is allowing the traditional owners of the land to be trapped in perpetual poverty, with significantly shorter lives and with next to no hope of help. Setting up something to address an imbalance like this, to bring actual equality, is not racist.

      There’s a fairly well known saying “when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Things aren’t getting worse for you, we’re just trying to pull other people out of a hole so they can stand beside you.

      • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        There is a lot of places in Australia where they are crying out for work and a load of backpackers have to go to a town to fill the jobs. The government even promote it because they need for jobs is so high.

        Then you get there and heaps of Aboriginals are unemployed or they are working part time do they can claim full benefits.

        They already get a load of help but at some point some of them need to realise they need to get a job or do something that isn’t ice.

      • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Great so make the body and dont put it in the constitution. Simple that way we can have the same body with the same “lack” of powers and dont need to divide race within the constitution.

        • MüThyme@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Again, it’s not dividing race at all.

          There are two good reasons for putting it in the constitution. One, it stops it being repealed by the opposition who have a history of that sort of thing, thus it won’t be limited to the term of a specific government.

          Secondly, Australia’s history is 100% built on disenfranchisement of our first people. Slavery, being defined as fauna, voting rights younger than a lifetime etc. Our national identity built this problem, our constitution should recognise who this country belongs to, it should recognise who this country has murdered, abducted and generally hated for it’s entire history. This definitely belongs in our constitution, colonialism stole Australia and it’s only fair to recognise that.

          • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            An advisory body for a particular race is by definition a division based on race. Say hypotheticaly there was a body in the constitution called the “nazi advisory body” where u had to be a true arian to join, would you agree that is blatantly racist? If so what does it matter what race it is or what its called its still a devision of race by definition.

            For you first point see the timeline of all bodies i have posted in this thread may shed some light on ur over generalisation.

            Second putting the voice in the constitution doesnt address that whatsoever if you want to put recognition of histories ateocities in the constitution put recognition of histories actrocities in the constitution. What does an advisary body in the constitution have to do with recognition of historical actrocities in the constitution.

            • JethPeter@aussie.zone
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              11 months ago

              I understand your point, however I think it misses a key element. This land was owned and occupied by our first nations peoples for 65k years.

              The British decided to take it over a few hundred years ago, a pretty rough decision for first nations peoples. In fact they were only recognised as real people with a right to vote in 1967.

              We can’t reverse that bad decision now, each of us are now Australian. Yet no other group of peoples were the victim of our new country formation. Having recognition in the constitution, and a protected voice for national decisions that affect them seems reasonable.

              No other group, culture, or religion has this relationship with our government. A voice for any other group wouldn’t make sense. It’s not a cultural voice - it’s a political one for the nations we forced from power.

              • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                I understand that i just dont beleive i can moraly accept making any devision based on race whatsoever regardless of purpose or reason. I guess thats where we differ.

    • Selmafudd@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      There have been a dozen or so advisory bodies since the 60s and most of the time they’re been disassembled when the following party gains controll of parliament. The only thing that would have changed would be to protect the body from being dissolved without another referendum, that’s it… All these people that have a problem with the voice probably have nfi these bodies already exist and have never been concerned with any recommendations they’ve made.

    • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      Yeah, I was reading about this in another thread and as I understand it this “advisory council” would have no actual authority, it would just hold meetings and make suggestions to lawmakers who could then take it or leave it. Left me with no idea why something like that needs to be in the constitution of a country. Just pass a law establishing it.

      • Suspiciousbrowsing@kbin.social
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        11 months ago

        Because laws can be repealed ? The purpose was to make it binding so there was always a indigenous body, unlike all of the previous bodies that cease to exist with change in government. Granted none were legislated I don’t believe

        • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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          11 months ago

          According to the text of the amendment laws would have to be passed to set the body’s “composition, functions, powers and procedures” anyway.

          I’m not saying this body would be a bad thing, I’m just unable to see why it needs to be in the constitution itself. The failure of the referendum doesn’t seem like it really impacts anything.

      • PoliticalAgitator@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        Your suggestion has been tried repeatedly and the moment the right-wing have the power needed to tear it down, that’s what they do.

        • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          ok so heres the timeline for all representative bodies:

          1973: The National Aboriginal Consultative Committee (NACC) was established by the Whitlam Government (Labor Party) as the first national body elected by Aboriginal people. Its main role was advisory only.

          1977: The NACC was abolished by the Fraser Government (Liberal-National Coalition) after a review found it ineffective. It was replaced by the National Aboriginal Conference (NAC), which was supposed to be a representative body for Indigenous people to advise the government on policy matters and to promote self-determination.

          1985: The NAC was dissolved by the Hawke Government (Labor Party), which established the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) in 1989 as a new representative body2. ATSIC had both representative and administrative functions, and was composed of elected regional councils and a national board of commissioners.

          2005: ATSIC was abolished by the Howard Government (Liberal-National Coalition) after allegations of corruption, mismanagement, and lack of accountability. It was replaced by a network of government-appointed advisory bodies, such as the National Indigenous Council and the Ministerial Taskforce on Indigenous Affairs.

          2010: The National Congress of Australia’s First Peoples (NCAFP) was established as an independent and representative body for Indigenous people, with funding support from the Rudd Government (Labor Party). The NCAFP aimed to be a national voice for Indigenous rights, interests, and aspirations.

          2019: The NCAFP ceased operations due to lack of funding from the Morrison Government (Liberal-National Coalition). The government instead supported the development of a new representative body, called the Indigenous Voice, which would provide advice to parliament and government on matters affecting Indigenous people.

          2023: A referendum on whether to enshrine the Indigenous Voice in the constitution was held on October 14, 2023. This referendum was rejected but does not necessarily mean it cannot still be enshrined in legislation (which I and I think many other people are in full support of).

          From this it does not seem that they where dissolved due to right wingers being racist but a multitude of other reasons in addition to potentially racist fuckwits and not all where dissolved by right wing parties either.

          • Spzi@lemm.ee
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            11 months ago

            Interesting, thanks. Could you please add the source?

            • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Couldnt be bothered bing ai puts sources at the bottom cos microsoft devs have iqs lower than the average house brick. But ur welcome to go check it i wish u luck finding any discrepencies.

              • Spzi@lemm.ee
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                11 months ago

                Oh, the list was generated by Bing AI? Then it’s likely it contains untrue statements; hallucinations.

                For this reason, you should fact check the output with independent sources and/or mention it was generated using a LLM.

                Sometimes the model adds a source but quotes something which the source does not say. Cannot trust these.

                • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Likely to contain untrue statements is a bit of an exageration. Yeah i checked sources (not independant ones cos is recon the australian government is a devent source for such a topic), plus sydney is prety decent at just pulling info out of websites.

                  If ur so concerned be my guest to independantly verify.

      • CalamityJoe@aussie.zone
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        11 months ago

        The answer to that lies within the question: why put anything in a constitution? Why have a constitution?

        Anything could be made using laws or rules. And anyone can then undo and rewrite them.

        It’s because countries generally need a foundational document outlining how government will operate, and how laws will be made, and what the country stands for. And have the stability and security of knowing that those operating principles can’t be easily changed.

        So the idea was, by incorporating the Voice within the constitution, you recognise indigenous Australians in your foundational document as having the right to have a recognised voice on what concerns them, and having unique aspects of history, and historical treatment, that make that appropriate.

        Not a right to dismiss laws, or change them. Not a right to create laws. Not a right to ignore laws, or amend proposals. Just to have a recognised voice on issues affecting them, and ask the “lawmakers” to do any of the above.

        This is important, because yes, you don’t want to enshrine anything that gives a small proportion of the population the ability to sidestep the legislative and political process.

        But as a country, we do want to enshrine a means by which indigenous Australians, - a historically extremely disadvantaged group of people, who form less than 4% of the population, and don’t have the financial or organisational means to engage expensive political lobby firms like large corporations and mining companies- can participate more directly with the political process of laws affecting them, and therefore feel symbolically “seen”.

        An analogy: If a public company wanted to create a Disability and Equity officer position, and wanted that position enshrined in the company charter to show the public that: the company was really serious about that position; provide good PR; signal to the public the company’s values; and protect it from being included in future job cuts, or made redundant in future for economic or ideological reasons under a different CEO, they would present shareholders with the question and put it to a vote.

        The company would not include within that question, details about how much that position would be paid. Or what room of what building they would work in. Or how they would communicate. Or what restrictions would be put on the position. Or how candidates would be interviewed, assessed, and hired.

        Shareholders would just see something like: “The company resolves to include the position of Disability and Equity Officer in the company charter, as an indication of the company’s desire that it become a more inclusive workplace, and to signal those values to the general public.”

        Because while you want people to know the position is permanent, you also want to leave the nitty gritty details to being guided by other processes, so that they can be changed more flexibly then once a year or more at a General Meeting of all shareholders

        • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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          11 months ago

          Unfortunately those words are largely wasted IMO. If you read the text of the constitutional amendment itself you’ll note that the constitution itself would have only established the existence of the council. Every other detail of it is left up to legislation:

          the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.”

          So again, why is this in the constitution? The Parliament could neuter it on a whim by passing a law at any point that established its composition is one guy and its sole function is to publish a pamphlet for sale in the Parliament gift shop. It wouldn’t make much difference if they could simply abolish it.

          • CalamityJoe@aussie.zone
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            11 months ago

            Because even with that additional wording was in the constitution, any law or changes that prevented the Voice from existing, and being able to make representations to Parliament, would be unconstitutional.

            • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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              11 months ago

              Alright, its sole function is to present that pamphlet to Parliament itself. Still pointless.

              • CalamityJoe@aussie.zone
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                11 months ago

                Not pointless at at all, and I’m not sure why you believe that.

                Do you think mining companies and large corporations spend the 100s of millions of dollars they do on political lobbyists, to approach parliament and put forward the companies’ views on their behalf, if it was pointless?

                No. Lobbyists achieve results, and at a minimum, make the companies feel like they’re part of the political process, and that their concerns and needs are being voiced, and a much healthier chance of having proposed legislation amended due to that lobbying. It’s political participation.

                Lobbyist don’t get to change laws either. They don’t get to amend or dismiss laws, or sidestep the political process. They communicate and voice their concerns to those that do have that ability. I don’t see anyone saying lobbyists are useless pamphlet sellers.

                The Voice was essentially a proposal to enable the creation of a constitutionally recognised lobbying entity that would work on Indigenous Australians’ behalf, since Indigenous Australians don’t have the financial or organisational capacity to create such an entity themselves, and

      • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Exactly we already have many bodies which function in that way and none of them are enshrined within the constitution. And even tho the voice has been rejected as part of the constitution it can still be implemented through legislation.

    • x4740N@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      This is why they should have a explain in your own words why you are voting this way on referendums

      Because it gives a lot more feedback than the binary yes or no option

      • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Solicit feedback, definitely - but soliciting that feedback in the moment that people are voting on the constitutional amendment that would implement that feedback is a little late, no?

    • saltesc@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      That was the concerning part. Defining, very permanently, a group of people from all the others based on race. That’s literally anti-equality.

      It was a very disheartening thing to happen and I couldn’t participate. Both options supporting going backward.

      I think most people that spoke proudly of their choice didn’t fundamentally understand what was going on, how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders and their nations work, nor the history of support to this point. Australians should be pissed off that it even happened and that was the choices. They shouldn’t be pissed off at the outcome or people’s choices. If they can point that energy toward the governments, we’d be progressing. Though, I’m sure it’ll all go back to business as usual and people will be on something else, doing nothing to educate themselves and be proactive.

        • saltesc@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          My opinion is that the issue is societal, not political. It is our responsibility, not a government’s. The government is to be in service of aiding us in fixing society, but in this case, has historically proven to be ineffective and unaccountable due to lack of society caring enough. To me, the option provided continued to reflect this and was a poorly wasted opportunity. If a legistave pathway carries the same lack of care, it won’t be effective either and that is on society. This is why I continue to say, it’s important to continue momentum on the topic, considering the referendum as a start of a hopeful snowball, but I fear Australians in general don’t care enough, therefore neither will the governments. This is historically how it has been time and again.

      • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Think of an outcome metric by which indigenous Australians aren’t materially worse off. As you struggle, I’d like you to tell me if you think that gap a product of inferior genetics or institutional racism?

        If it’s institutional racism, why would you call solutions targeted at closing that gap and reaching something resembling racial equality racist?

        • saltesc@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I think you’re fundamentally missing the point and trying to set up targets to attack. You don’t even know my background, point of view, or stance.

          For starters, I have not mentioned racism as a topic on any side. Though you say I have and that’s all you’re talking about? Why? Where did that come from? Refer to my third paragraph. You have underscored it for me.

          I’d appreciate it—certainly others would too—if you took the time and energy spent on me toward improving the situation by directing it where it will make a difference. Division of allies is not what any ethnicity in any nation needs and I’d urge you to not participate in it.