There have been various posts here in the last days describing how difficult it is for new people to start using Lemmy. In fact they are absolutely correct, it is much easier to get started on Reddit. But what many forget is that Lemmy is not a corporation employing dozens of full-time designers, running A/B-tests and so on. Lemmy is an open source project run by volunteers, with only @dessalines and me working on it full-time. Neither of us is a particularly good designer, and our time is mainly spent working on the backend (database, federation, api), and preparing the upcoming 1.0 release.
If you see anything on join-lemmy.org or in the Lemmy UI itself that could be improved, the best option is to make that improvement yourself. Both of them use standard web technologies (nodejs, tailwindcss, inferno etc). The userbase here is quite technical so there are many of you able to contribute. We rarely reject any pull requests as long as they make a real improvement. Though it usually requires a little back and forth to review the changes and then address the review comments.
You can find the source code for join-lemmy.org here and follow development instructions in the readme. Regarding the default Lemmy UI go here and read the documentation with development instructions. If you are not a developer you can still help, for example by improving the documentation. Additionally you can make changes to the texts for joinlemmy and lemmy-ui.
All this said, there have also been some suggestions to make onboarding easier by directing new users to a hardcoded default instance. This may sound like a good idea at first but won’t work well in practice. Running such an instance would take significant time for administration and moderation, but we maintainers are already too busy. Besides it would be impossible to reach an agreement who this default instance should federate with or how exactly it should be moderated. So if you want to get nontechnical users to Lemmy, the solution is to link them directly to a specific instance based on their interests.
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Also remember to be nice. I see heated arguments regressing into ad hominems by the third comment pretty regularly. We can be better than Reddit
You and you being so nice made me switch to ad hominem faster than usual! How the person like you can be so terribly pleasant? Treat yourself, you fellow lemming.
The userbase here is quite technical so there are many of you able to contribute.
As a project manager, I can help by ballooning the scope and setting the deadline to yesterday! Doing my part!
Don’t forget about asking how the project is going too!
Didn’t be so hard on yourself. You can also pester us about the status of Jira tickets.
Hey if an old guy like me can figure it out its not hard .
They are entitled and don’t want to expend effort
I don’t have much to say, but thank you for working on lemmy all these years.
I can complain about it a lot sometimes, but I’m very grateful for both the communities and the developers that kickstarted the fediverse, and for free too! So, thank you ❤️
If you or other people want to discuss the development of fedisoftware for beginners, or just growing as a whole you and everyone else are more than welcome at [email protected]!
FWIW, I think the design and layout of lemmy is superb. Way better than reddit, old and new.
You guys made a lot of good decisions.
“Which server do I join?” seems to be a sticking point for a lot of people.
The “Browse servers” page does say at the top “You can access all content in the lemmyverse from any server, so it doesn’t matter which one you choose”, but on showing this page you immediately scroll that message off the screen. Maybe if you kept that bit visible it would help.
Also I think comparing it with email servers might be helpful. People already know they can email anyone from any email server, and that signing up to, say, Posteo, doesn’t mean you can only email other Posteo users.
it doesn’t matter which one you choose
That’s not really true though, every instance has it’s own rules, and it’s own federation policies, not to mention the other instances that don’t federate with it.
I’m already on lemmy, so it’s not like I haven’t gone through this before, yet I still haven’t made a pixelfed account despite being interested because I don’t want to just go for the biggest instance and I have no idea how to vet the other ones.
Easier
If choosing a server and signing up is too “hard” for someone, then I’d rather they stay on Reddit.
Can Lemmy benefit from your suggestions, definitely. But the easy vs hard structure to these types of conversations feel a lot like the shopping cart dilemma.
It’s not that it’s “too hard”, it’s that even a tiny set back for something that someone is already hesitant to do can be enough to make them not do it. It’s just easier to call that “hard” or “confusing” than say “even a tiny set back for something that someone is already hesitant to do can be enough to make them not do it.”
Then they don’t want to be here. Part of the reason this community is so great is because it’s fueled by those who actively want to participate in a place like this. It doesn’t have to be a place for everyone to be the best place for those here.
You can actively want to do something but be bombarded with minute ultimately irrelevant details and still get frustrated.
I’m doing my small part.
Went from 100% lurker on Reddit to regularly active lemmy commenter
Same. I still occasionally browse Reddit, but I have a rule that I don’t post or comment there. I do post and comment here.
Don’t forget to adblock them so you’re draining the resources, minutely and slowly, but draining nonetheless.
I don’t internet without uBlock. I honestly couldn’t imagine it any other way.
My proposal have been a little more complicated, but IMO works well for a BFU:
- create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked
- I don’t have any particular rules in mind, but some examples might include active moderation team, obviously registrations being open and if you really want to make it easy, either no application question or having it automatically approved by an automod of some kind
- on join-lemmy, present a registration form that will create an account on a randomly selected instance from the pool and redirect there afterwards
- there should be a link somewhere for “experts” where you could link to the current wizard
I’m willing to work on this if we can sit down and agree on the criteria for the pool. I can also ask my UX guy to help a little.
Feel free to text me here or on Matrix if this is something you think is worth pursuing. I’d also appreciate if you let me know it’s not the direction you want to go in.
- create some set of rules for “default instances” - every instance that wants to be in the list must follow them and will be periodically checked
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the effort to make joining Lemmy easier has some downsides. One of the nicest things about these communities is how easy it is to have good conversations with internet strangers. I’ve grown to appreciate and hope for Lemmy not trying to be a Reddit replacement. In fact, I’m totally fine with “the masses” staying in Spez’s data harvesting machine. If, one day, Lemmy gets as popular as Reddit, I think it will inevitably have many of the same problems. It just theoretically won’t be selling your data for profit (one hopes, anyway). My wife isn’t super-techy, and I explained the concept of Lemmy to my wife in about 10 minutes. She set up an account in about 5.
To me, it’s not that using or joining Lemmy is hard. It’s that a lot of people have come to loathe change. They’re told that Lemmy is “like Reddit,” so why leave Reddit, all their accumulated Internet points, and their familiar communities/echo chambers? Pretty much all of them also use other data-harvesting social media sites, so they mostly don’t care about that aspect. When I tell my friends about Lemmy I talk about how the size of the communities is really conducive to good conversations from wide enough ranges of opinions and experiences, compared to Reddit’s too much of everything including trolls.
Forgot to add that I’m not saying Lemmy is perfect as is. For sure there are things that can be improved and tweaked. And by all means, people who want to contribute should be encouraged and applauded. I’m just saying that the community that’s grown here is pretty great, and growth coming from slow-ish trickle of new users probably wouldn’t threaten that. Right now, Lemmy has a good late-90s, early 00s community feeling, and I really enjoy it.
I agree with the general feeling, but we could probably have a bit more activity while still keeping that feeling.
100k monthly active users would allow most of the communities promoted on [email protected] to have more than one or two regular posters
I have nothing to add except I hope you’re still enjoying Lord of the Rings.
I do, although the sections in Mordor are a bit tedious to get through. But its worth it for all the details that were left out of the movies.
Let’s all be clear, Reddit is part of the surveillance state.
You can’t log in without Google and Apple trackers being allowed. New Reddit has recapcha trackers on every page. Only old.reddit doesn’t track what you see, just what you write.
Your thoughts and content belong to a publicly traded company focused on profits if you use reddit.
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Its best if you improve the existing site, that way you dont have to worry about hosting, or directing users to your new site.
If you see anything…that could be improved, the best option is to make that improvement yourself.
Are you under the impression that just everyone is a web developer?
Besides it would be impossible to reach an agreement who this default instance should federate with or how exactly it should be moderated.
If I may make a proposition: You can look at how Pixelfed allows certain instances that meet certain standards to opt into being listed in the app for discovery, all electronically. My recommendation would be to have 2 choices for users on sign-up:
- A random choice from the list of approved instances, that’s rotated periodically to prevent any particular instance from being inundated with new signups
- “Choose a different instance” where users can enter their preferred one manually.
People can’t seem to make up their minds if it matters which instance you join. I really don’t think it does.
Are you under the impression that just everyone is a web developer?
The Lemmy documentation is just text
Thank you for this post and encouragement. I am open to volunteering my time and talents to help people find Lemmy.
However, after the work is done, it would be fantastic if you all could invest in advertising. I know that Google and Bing aren’t great but if I had to guess, search trend for “reddit alternatives” is probably rising and Lemmy is in a great spot to provide reddit refuges a life raft.
