one X user claimed the website was “anti-free speech” after he said he was banned from the “comics” subreddit for denying that the tech mogul did a Nazi salute
That sounds like pro truth rather than “anti free speech”, no?
Free speech means having to read and hear things you don’t like or disagree with every now and again. I personally think bans should be restricted to hate speech or else we’ll sleep walk in to an echo chamber.
I should be allowed to play the drums in your bedroom at any time of the day or night I please and you’re not allowed to kick me out because freeze peaches
Invasion of privacy, breech of the peace, trespassing and probably more.
Your terrible analogy has almost nothing to do with freedom of speech, if you think a redditor writing an opinion on Musk is equivalent to them playing the drums in your bedroom at night, you might be a tad sensitive.
Nah, you don’t have a right to a space; that is, spaces have a right to police themselves. If you don’t like it, the cost to start your own community is virtually nill, and you can go ahead and refuse to moderate that community. That’s your choice and you’re free to make it.
Damn, now you got me defending fucking Musk on this issue.
Freedom of speech is also the freedom to lie. However, that just means the state can’t arrest you for your speech. Nobody owes you a platform for your free speech.
No, freedom of speech doesn’t protect you against false statements. There’s literally a ton of other laws that penalize that, depending on the context. Purgery, slander, libel, breach of contract, just to name a few.
I already said that there were limitations to free speech earlier. But untruth is also protected under the US Constitution. It all relates to a possibility of harm.
If i said that I was the Easter Bunny, it would be a lie, but who is harmed by it?
If I falsely yell fire in a crowded theatre and people get trampled, then harm, or a risk of harm is evident.
These are all standard arguments on free speech. But, yes, there are many carve outs where an untrue statement is protected under law. I just don’t have the time or inclination to list them all. You can check them out yourself.
Show me the legalisation where it is illegal to lie. How is it enforced? Who enforces it? Who arbatrates it?
Freedom of speech is a moral right, and nothing more. If you start arresting people on perceived lies, that is a very dangerous slippery slope. I hope that the Donald doesn’t start arresting people who he believes is lying. Where will THAT stop?
And, no, I’m not Asian, tho I don’t understand your asking.
Neither of those links suggested that it was illegal to lie. Why not? Because it is fucking impossible to tie that rule into a working possibility. Go read your own links yourself, because it is obvious that you haven’t.
It talks about limitations on hate speech, etc, but you can lie without hate speech.
Freedom of speech is an ideal, and is tied to state control of speech. There are all kinds of limitations, including public safety and defamation, etc. But if I called you a Martian, obviously that is a lie. What happens? Does the free speech police lock me up?
I’m not interested in personal attacks, by the way.
Friend, the issue isn’t freedom of speech. It’s breach of contract. The establishment has policies which are the contract for using the designated space. If you breach those policies you are in violation of said contract that deems you ineligible to participate within the establishment.
You do not have the right to intrude on other people’s establishments after being asked to leave for violating their written terms of service without being accepted back.
Edit: for example, Lemmy.world has a rule of no advocating for future violence. Do I agree with it? It does not matter. They created the policy and it is their establishment. If I advocate for future violence they can ask me to leave, and if I argue with them they very well may ban be from posting/commenting there. It isn’t my freedom of speech that they are banning, it is my access to their establishment.
That’s true and I appreciate that different opinions are often unwelcome, I’d still rather that than end up in an extremely boring echo chamber where the “conversation” is not much more than a circle jerk.
It’s weird that this issue only comes up when it comes to defend nazi shit and not with other things.
I’ll give you a specific example: I posted this on r/ShowerThoughts: “Incest is like pissing in your gene pool”.
I think it’s pretty good, but mods deleted my post because it goes against community guidelines.
If I got into an argument with the mods and got banned from r/ShowerThoughts, I wouldn’t be going around crying about “freedom of speech”, because it’s dumb, and communities have rules.
These arguments are always about normalizing nazi shit. Fuck that.
The difference here is that you made a post against community guidelines. Where as in this case the guy seems to have been banned for wrong think.
Man, it’s such a shitty hill to die on.
When I posted, there was no specific guidance on “incest jokes” at r/Showerthoughts that I am aware of.
Normalizing nazi shit goes against most communities guidelines, somewhere around the general, “don’t post hateful stuff” requirements
If communities can have their own rules, they are free to ban people for hateful shit.
And yeah, Musk made a nazi salute, which at this point is a pretty objective fact (Tesla’s track record of racial harassment, EM’s track record of boosting nazi shit on X, EM renaming self as Kekius Maximus, talking about the “future of our civilization” while doing the gesture, repetition, and turning as per nazi protocol, etc etc.). The only things that are up for debate are A) why did he do it? B) Was he chemically impaired while doing it.
Hear me out. Let’s remove the politics from this equation for a second
Let’s say I stood on a podium, did pelvic thrusts and formed a V with my fingers stuck my tongue through them making circular motions with it, and when people got upset, I responded to with pussy jokes. Would you interpret my actions as an “awkward gesture”? You could, but people would consider you either a perv, or a troll. Same applies here.
It isn’t - unless your comment applies just to the USA, otherwise read the UN definition of freedom of speech.
Are you a another USian by any chance? I noticed people from USA have completly skewed definition of freedom of speech which may partially explain why Trump is able to get away with his constant lies.
Freedom of speech does not cover lies. It doesn’t mean lies are illegal - it only means they are NOT protected under the freedom of speech - which means they can be banned or made illegal if individual states decides to do so.
Furthermore there is plethora of situations in which lies are illegal in multiple countries. As a matter of example, in the UK lying when you are selling something is called “fraudulent misrepresentation” and it is a criminal offence.
Tell me where scientists are prosecuted for having got a theory wrong
Tell me where meteorologists routinely are prosecuted
I already mentioned the obvious exceptions (lying to cause certain types of harm) but few western countries allow penalties for anything outside those exceptions
That sounds like pro truth rather than “anti free speech”, no?
Free speech means having to read and hear things you don’t like or disagree with every now and again. I personally think bans should be restricted to hate speech or else we’ll sleep walk in to an echo chamber.
Nazi salutes are hate speech.
Moderators on a private website don’t actually have to put up with Nazi liars.
Nice opinion, you’re entitled to that!
Learn the definition of “opinion.”
Opinion:
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge
What’s your point? Other than trying to discredit me by insinuating I’m an idiot?
I never thought that endorsing the freedom of speech would be so controversial!
Oh, this is a much more dire educational lack than a single word. You can’t even parse the meaning of a sentence. Sorry, kid.
asks definition of a wordwhen given the definition moves the goal posts in an incredibly condescending way.
Why don’t you stop criticising me as a person and say what you want to say in plain English?
I take it you can’t articulate your problem with my argument and that’s why you have a problem with me instead.
Read The Parable of the Nazi Bar:
https://en.everybodywiki.com/The_Parable_of_the_Nazi_Bar
Yes they are. And as you said, you personally should be subjected to opinion you don’t like.
Exactly the point, I don’t know why I’m struggling to get that across, apparently people get it when you say it!
I should be allowed to play the drums in your bedroom at any time of the day or night I please and you’re not allowed to kick me out because freeze peaches
Invasion of privacy, breech of the peace, trespassing and probably more.
Your terrible analogy has almost nothing to do with freedom of speech, if you think a redditor writing an opinion on Musk is equivalent to them playing the drums in your bedroom at night, you might be a tad sensitive.
deleted by creator
Nah, you don’t have a right to a space; that is, spaces have a right to police themselves. If you don’t like it, the cost to start your own community is virtually nill, and you can go ahead and refuse to moderate that community. That’s your choice and you’re free to make it.
Freedom of speech is not a freedom to lie.
Damn, now you got me defending fucking Musk on this issue.
Freedom of speech is also the freedom to lie. However, that just means the state can’t arrest you for your speech. Nobody owes you a platform for your free speech.
That said, Elon Musk is a turd sandwich.
No, freedom of speech doesn’t protect you against false statements. There’s literally a ton of other laws that penalize that, depending on the context. Purgery, slander, libel, breach of contract, just to name a few.
I already said that there were limitations to free speech earlier. But untruth is also protected under the US Constitution. It all relates to a possibility of harm.
If i said that I was the Easter Bunny, it would be a lie, but who is harmed by it?
If I falsely yell fire in a crowded theatre and people get trampled, then harm, or a risk of harm is evident.
These are all standard arguments on free speech. But, yes, there are many carve outs where an untrue statement is protected under law. I just don’t have the time or inclination to list them all. You can check them out yourself.
Again, it is not. Freedom of speech is a freedom to receive information and exchange ideas. Not a freedom to lie.
Are you a USian by any chance? They quite often misunderstand what freedom of speech is.
Yes, but in this case we are not talking about a lie, we are talking about an opinion which you yourself consider a lie.
It comes back to objective truth Vs opinion which I have already replied to you about.
Regardless of this, there are cases where lying is protected by the first amendment.
https://www.freedomforum.org/is-lying-protected-first-amendment/
The example of where lying is not protected in the case to which we are referring would be:
Again, it is.
Show me the legalisation where it is illegal to lie. How is it enforced? Who enforces it? Who arbatrates it?
Freedom of speech is a moral right, and nothing more. If you start arresting people on perceived lies, that is a very dangerous slippery slope. I hope that the Donald doesn’t start arresting people who he believes is lying. Where will THAT stop?
And, no, I’m not Asian, tho I don’t understand your asking.
Again, it isn’t. Read the fucking definition and educate yourself.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/free-speech-freedom-expression-human-right
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
Who was talking about Asians? I asked if you are a USian. Someone from USA. People from USA often misunderstand what freedom of speech is.
sigh
Again it is.
Neither of those links suggested that it was illegal to lie. Why not? Because it is fucking impossible to tie that rule into a working possibility. Go read your own links yourself, because it is obvious that you haven’t.
It talks about limitations on hate speech, etc, but you can lie without hate speech.
Freedom of speech is an ideal, and is tied to state control of speech. There are all kinds of limitations, including public safety and defamation, etc. But if I called you a Martian, obviously that is a lie. What happens? Does the free speech police lock me up?
I’m not interested in personal attacks, by the way.
Which part of “the right to seek, receive and impart information and ideas” caused you trouble?
So, are you a USian?
Friend, the issue isn’t freedom of speech. It’s breach of contract. The establishment has policies which are the contract for using the designated space. If you breach those policies you are in violation of said contract that deems you ineligible to participate within the establishment.
You do not have the right to intrude on other people’s establishments after being asked to leave for violating their written terms of service without being accepted back.
Edit: for example, Lemmy.world has a rule of no advocating for future violence. Do I agree with it? It does not matter. They created the policy and it is their establishment. If I advocate for future violence they can ask me to leave, and if I argue with them they very well may ban be from posting/commenting there. It isn’t my freedom of speech that they are banning, it is my access to their establishment.
That’s true and I appreciate that different opinions are often unwelcome, I’d still rather that than end up in an extremely boring echo chamber where the “conversation” is not much more than a circle jerk.
Well if this person truly believes it wasn’t a Nazi salute, then he’s not lying.
I believe ghosts aren’t real, but that doesn’t mean I think anyone that has seen a ghost is lying, I truly believe that they think they saw a ghost.
There’s a huge difference between an objective truth and a widely agreed upon opinion.
It’s weird that this issue only comes up when it comes to defend nazi shit and not with other things. I’ll give you a specific example: I posted this on r/ShowerThoughts: “Incest is like pissing in your gene pool”. I think it’s pretty good, but mods deleted my post because it goes against community guidelines. If I got into an argument with the mods and got banned from r/ShowerThoughts, I wouldn’t be going around crying about “freedom of speech”, because it’s dumb, and communities have rules.
These arguments are always about normalizing nazi shit. Fuck that.
The difference here is that you made a post against community guidelines. Where as in this case the guy seems to have been banned for wrong think.
I’m not arguing that communities can’t have their own rules.
Man, it’s such a shitty hill to die on.
Hear me out. Let’s remove the politics from this equation for a second
Let’s say I stood on a podium, did pelvic thrusts and formed a V with my fingers stuck my tongue through them making circular motions with it, and when people got upset, I responded to with pussy jokes. Would you interpret my actions as an “awkward gesture”? You could, but people would consider you either a perv, or a troll. Same applies here.
So yeah, stop normalizing nazi shit.
People here seem to be confused between me endorsing “Nazi shit”, which I am not, and me backing the freedom of speech.
I don’t know why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
FYI, your comment history is public, so people have more context for your posts here than you assume.
Agreed, that makes him deluded instead. Not many people however are stupid enough to be able to analyse Musk salute and belive it wasn’t a nazi one.
I’m not getting in to the Musk debate, I’m quite frankly bored of it, just let me know if he does it again.
I’m only here to defend freedom of speech.
In legal terms it is (with the obvious exceptions for impersonation, defamation, etc)
But in private forums? Mods can be however strict they want
It isn’t - unless your comment applies just to the USA, otherwise read the UN definition of freedom of speech.
Are you a another USian by any chance? I noticed people from USA have completly skewed definition of freedom of speech which may partially explain why Trump is able to get away with his constant lies.
Tell me where fiction is illegal to publish
Are you a little bit slow?
Freedom of speech does not cover lies. It doesn’t mean lies are illegal - it only means they are NOT protected under the freedom of speech - which means they can be banned or made illegal if individual states decides to do so.
Furthermore there is plethora of situations in which lies are illegal in multiple countries. As a matter of example, in the UK lying when you are selling something is called “fraudulent misrepresentation” and it is a criminal offence.
Tell me where scientists are prosecuted for having got a theory wrong
Tell me where meteorologists routinely are prosecuted
I already mentioned the obvious exceptions (lying to cause certain types of harm) but few western countries allow penalties for anything outside those exceptions
Are you more than a little bit slow?
Do you see the difference between “lies NOT protected” and “lies criminalised”? And BTW I just gave you an example of a criminalised lie.
Absolutely not you dimwit.
I run a security related subreddit (cryptography). A false sense of security from wrong answers can literally kill
This place is already an echo chamber. Just try not agreeing with the party line.