I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now. So, where will it stop? Have the Israeli government ever spoken about this?

  • Monument@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
    383·
    5 months ago

    Yeah - it’s about regional control, and defensive positions.

    This comment is sort of a continuation of this one, but not exactly. (Sorry about the link to my instance, I’m new and don’t know how to do the thing.)

    The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

    The state of play right now is that the U.S. actually produces enough petroleum for its own needs, but our western allies do not, and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level/a level where they’ll have to channel money to the Middle East (which hates the U.S. for its meddling, or to Russia, which also hates the U.S.)

    In about 10-15 years, technology and renewables will advance to a point where oil demand is going to have decreased to the point where the U.S. can supply all of its needs and those of its western allies without jacking the price up.

    That means the U.S. won’t need a bully. But it will mean that the U.S. will cut funding to Israel, and more or less stop coming to their defense. Israel’s plan is to push out every non-Jew, using Zionism as an excuse for awful statecraft, and they’re going to push their borders to easily defensible geographic areas.
    Once they do that, they’re going to basically become North Korea of the Middle East - armed to the teeth and hard to get into. Because if they don’t, everyone they’ve been bullying for the past hundred years (yes, this started before the declaration of statehood), is going to wipe them from the map - potentially leading to them launching the nukes they keep pretending they don’t have, so they don’t have to undergo international monitoring.

    Assuming, of course, the plot by other countries to destabilize the U.S. fails and U.S. is still major player by the time Israel’s plan is accomplished. If the destabilization effort succeeds, we may see a full scale war against Israel before their aims are achieved.

    That’s my take on it, anyway. They won’t stop because they don’t think they can stop, due to how horrible they’ve been. (At the behest of the U.S., who will begin dropping them once their usefulness has ended.)

    • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
      101·
      5 months ago

      Reminds of the accounts of people who owned enslaved people being afraid to let them go because of how they thought once freed they would turn around and slaughter their former “masters” because how could they not.

      Except that didn’t happen.

      • Monument@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
        3·
        5 months ago

        A bunch of folks without many rights, property, education, or jobs in a country where they are basically hostages is quite different than Iran.

        • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
          4·
          5 months ago

          It is, you’re right. It’s kind of a poor comparaison now that I see it spelled out

    • MonkderDritte@feddit.de
      3·
      5 months ago

      and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level

      That would actually be good, so EV and plastic alternatives get better chances.

      • Monument@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
        2·
        5 months ago

        I don’t deny that. I really can’t wait for the transition away from petroleum.

        But … power, and the economy is power. Sigh. The U.S. gets billions for its oil.

    • ImDankMom@lemdro.idEnglish
      11·
      5 months ago

      I’m just gonna comment here because most of my comments from my main aren’t getting federated in this thread. Not sure if I’m being censored or just janky federation, but its frustrating to be silenced in this situation. I’ll delete this if my actual comments ever show up.

      history lesson

      Why don’t you try answering his questions? He just demonstrated how the assertions you made in your original post don’t make any sense. And your response is a list of random historical generalities without any attempt to dispute the factual and logical inconsistencies of your argument. Oy vey

      You’re advancing a thesis that the US has been intentionally destabilizing the Middle East for the past 70 years, when the truth is the complete opposite. Destabilizing the region is what causes the price of oil to rise, the best interest of the US is for the region to be more stable so they can sell us more oil for cheaper prices.

      You’re so massively, incalculably confused and yet you believe yourself to be not only knowledgeable, but capable of explaining the situation to others. Remarkable.

      [Comment 2]

      … I just realized you think my comments about Israel being a bully mean you think I mean the U.S. is destabilizing the Middle East.

      And while that is true in limited contexts, I’m talking about Israel being a projection of U.S. power in the area, to prevent unity against the west. Obviously, the U.S. destabilizes countries that are opposed to the west, and fosters ones that aren’t.

      This sequence of words is utterly meaningless. “You think I meant the US is destabilizing the Middle East, but actually I meant that the US uses Israel in limited contexts in order to destabilize the Middle East”.

      Huh? You’re saying the US destabilizes countries opposed to the west in the Middle East, using Israel as a projection of power. So, you’re saying that the US is destabilizing the Middle East. My reading comprehension is just fine, but you just have absolutely no clue what point you’re even trying to make. Your position is completely incoherent and paradoxical.

      The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

      No, it hasn’t. The Middle East has never been even remotely unified, why would the US be concerned about that?

      If anything, the existence of Israel is the most unifying force for many Middle Eastern countries who can barely agree on anything except hating Israel.

      pay attention to what it says about the

      FOH with this bullshit, quote the relevant passage that you claim contradicts me. You constantly dodge and run away from any points made against you and try to move the goalposts to distract from your glaring ignorance and wrongness.

      [Comment 3 (this one went through on at least one server)]

      And of course all the plans of the US that specifically talked about destroying nations like Iraq and Syria and the invasion of Iraq to do exactly that… All coincidences! Who would be so mean to assume this to be part of larger strategies?

      You need to cite sources. This means nothing without a specific source. The US previously had war plans to invade Canada in the event of war with the British Empire. Does that indicate the US is currently trying to destabilize Canada? Such is the nature of geopolitics.

      Ahh yes. The Middle Easts own history. Clearly has nothing to do with French, British or US being the colonizing entities… And after all why would the US be interested in dividing a region that is connecting 3 continents and has the mos accessible of the main strategic ressources of the past two centuries.

      First of all, the French, British and US never colonized the middle east. They did engage in imperialism in order to control the geopolitical situation from distance after the demise of a previous colonial empire (the Ottomans), but there wasn’t any concerted effort to permanently settle or develop colonies in the region. The Middle East has historically been a colonizing region, not a colonized region.

      Seriously try to answer your own question. Why would the US be interested in destabilizing the region? So they can deal with more terrorist attacks until the end of time? The success of Middle Eastern countries is not a threat to US hegemony. They are on the payroll just like everyone else, they take US money for their oil and then they turn around and spend that money on manufactured goods and advanced services provided by US corporations. The US always wins as long as there is peace and economic activity is maximized. The US loses when economic activity is reduced, which is why you have the constant interventions in response to political and religious violence and extremism.

      The US military is a generally a peacekeeping force, because the US economy is a much more powerful tool for dominating other countries. A military victory only lasts as long as you have troops on the ground, but an economic victory can effectively assimilate an entire society, leaving no trace. The more money that Middle Eastern countries make, the more dependent they become on American goods and services. That’s the larger trajectory of the American geopolitical aim, not some childish strategy of “destabilizing” foreign regimes just to get embroiled in hugely expensive wars.

      • ImDankMom@lemdro.idEnglish
        11·
        5 months ago
        comment was too long

        [Comment 4]

        You are completely and utterly confused and mistaken about everything that you just said. I wish I could help you, but the best I can offer is to stop offering opinions on topics that you know nothing about.

        How is it so impossible for you to respond to the words I have already written down?

        You have repeatedly stated that the US has been intentionally destabilizing the Middle East.

        Now you state that:

        The U.S. has a vested interest in keeping Middle East oil flowing and cheap until it’s no longer needed

        a stable oil market means a healthy economy and unchanged projection of geopolitical power for the U.S., yes?

        I know, I literally just explained that fact to you. How is Middle East oil going to keep flowing cheaply if the US destabilizes the region and causes wars and conflict? Please explain how that makes sense to you. You think that oil becomes cheaper when the country is at war? Wtf are you smoking?

        Please, for the love of God, respond to my argument instead of going on some tangent about how the Hebrews were enslaved in the Old Testament or some shit. Confront your own ignorance.

        Oh! The Wikipedia article says that the U.S. provided significant help to Israel. They said Israel won those on their own. Nah. They did alright in ‘67, fully stocked with U.S. weapons, because they knew it was coming. And in 73, the U.S. had to execute operation Nickel Grass to bail Israel out.

        Lmfao this would be funny if it weren’t so worrying for the future of humanity. The US had to bail Israel out? My man, the USSR had to threaten nuclear war in order to bail out Syria and Egypt (from a war they started) and get the US to force Israel to agree to a ceasefire before they overran Cairo and Damascus.

        The Yom Kippur war began when Egypt and Syria, supported by auxiliary forces from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Algeria, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Morocco, Cuba, and North Korea, launched a surprise attack on Israel on the Holy day of Yom Kippur, October 6th, 1973. The Arabic forces were supplied with weapons by their Soviet allies, and Israel was supplied by their American allies. Just in case you can’t count, that’s 12 Arabic and communist states versus Israel alone, with the advantage of surprise. Israel proceeded to absolutely rout the opposing forces in a matter of weeks.

        After three days of heavy fighting, Israel halted the Egyptian offensive, resulting in a military stalemate on that front, and pushed the Syrians back to the pre-war ceasefire lines. The Israeli military then launched a four-day-long counter-offensive deep into Syria, and within a week Israeli artillery began to shell the outskirts of the Syrian capital of Damascus. Egyptian forces meanwhile pushed for two strategic mountain passes deeper within the Sinai Peninsula but were repulsed, and Israeli forces counter-attacked by crossing the Suez Canal into Egypt and advancing towards Suez City. On 22 October, an initial ceasefire brokered by the United Nations unravelled, with each side blaming the other for the breach.

        By 24 October, the Israelis had improved their positions considerably and completed their encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army and Suez City, bringing them within 100 kilometres (62 mi) of the Egyptian capital of Cairo.

        Your argument is that the US provided significant help to Israel and they wouldn’t have been able to win without the US. It was a fucking surprise attack and they were able to turn the tide within three days. That not even enough time for supplies to get shipped into Israel from the States. Guess what else? The Soviet Union provided more help to Syria and Egypt than the US did to Israel, as it stated in the Wikipedia article which you linked, but apparently didn’t take the time to read.

        In the end, the military airlift shipped 22,325 tons of materiel to Israel. Additionally, the U.S. conducted its own seaborne re-supply operation, delivering 33,210 tons to Israel by 30 October.[17] During the same general time, the Soviets airlifted 12,500–15,000 tons of supplies, more than half of which went to Syria; they also supplied another 63,000 tons mainly to Syria by means of a sealift.

        66,00 tons of material from the Soviets versus 55,000 tons from the USA. Please stop spreading propaganda; you’re just a happy idiot, but bad actors move people like you around like pawns on a chessboard. Hamas is playing you like a fiddle and you don’t even realize.

        They did alright in ‘67, fully stocked with U.S. weapons, because they knew it was coming.

        I don’t know how to explain this to you, but the fact that they didn’t know it was coming in 73, or many times since then, is exactly why they have some moral ground to stand on. Invading another nation without declaring war in advance is barbaric and cowardly. Regardless of any other opinions that you hold, surely we can agree that any military action should be announced in advance and directed towards military targets? I don’t believe that any civilized person can fail to understand that principle. If armed conflict is inevitable, at least give forewarning and let the defenseless women, children, and elderly get to safety.

        Israel does that. Hamas does the exact opposite. They go out of their way to attack defenseless Israeli civilians and they actively put their own civilians in harms way so that they can use their preventable deaths for political maneuvering. Absolutely disgusting, indefensible behavior.

    • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
      58·
      5 months ago

      The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

      Is there any evidence to directly prove this claim? This sounds like a made up justification to validate your own opinions. The Middle East isn’t divided by the US, it’s divided by its own history of imperialism, colonization, oppression and violence based on religious and ethnic lines accross the centuries. There’s really no incentive for the US keep the Middle East divided, not to mention that oil producing countries are already united through OPEC.

      Besides, why would the US need a bully when it’s directly allied with Gulf states? Not only that but those states are also allied with Israel. Who exactly is bullying who? The only agreed upon bully in the region is Iran, it’s actually the uniting factor between the Gulf states and the Israelis. Not to mention that the US doesn’t need a bully because it’s more than capable of doing what it wants.

      The state of play right now is that the U.S. actually produces enough petroleum for its own needs, but our western allies do not, and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level/a level where they’ll have to channel money to the Middle East (which hates the U.S. for its meddling, or to Russia, which also hates the U.S.)

      You understand that it’s not only American allies that rely on Middle Eastern oil, right? China, India, Southeast Asia, and so on all rely on Middle Eastern oil and they all have a vested interest in keeping it flowing. If anything, the US is incentivized to sell its own oil since it’s a net exporter.

      In about 10-15 years, technology and renewables will advance to a point where oil demand is going to have decreased to the point where the U.S. can supply all of its needs and those of its western allies without jacking the price up.

      Again, is there any source that backs up this prediction?

      But it will mean that the U.S. will cut funding to Israel, and more or less stop coming to their defense.

      This idea that Israel only exists due to US funding is a myth. Israel won all its major wars by itself and it has one of the world’s largest and most resilient economies. US aid, which is almost entirely in the form of loans or weapons contracts, account for less than 1% of Israel’s GDP.

      Israel’s plan is to push out every non-Jew, using Zionism as an excuse for awful statecraft, and they’re going to push their borders to easily defensible geographic areas.

      20% of Israel’s citizens aren’t Jewish. Also do you even know what Zionism is?

      Because if they don’t, everyone they’ve been bullying for the past hundred years (yes, this started before the declaration of statehood), is going to wipe them from the map - potentially leading to them launching the nukes they keep pretending they don’t have, so they don’t have to undergo international monitoring.

      This is historically illiterate point of view. First of all, Israel isn’t the bully in this conflict, especially before statehood. If you look at the actual history, you’ll how muslims in the region collaborated with the Nazis to help eradicate the Jews during WWII or how the Arab world rejected the 1947 UN peace plan and invaded Israel with the intention to destroy it or again in 1967 during the six day war or again in 1973 Yom Kippur war or the 1920 Nebi Musa riots against Jews in Jerusalem or the 1921 Jaffa riots or the Jaffa deportations by the Ottomans in 1917 or the 1929 riots and massacres (including the Hebron Massacre which destroyed the ancient community there) or the insane number of Palestinian terrorist groups and their attacks on civilians. The number is comically large that there are entire databases dedicated just recording all of them:

      https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html

      https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel

      Hell, even Wikipedia can’t fit all of them in a single article:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_in_Israel_by_year

      Ffs, the Palestinian leadership at the time, which is arguably the foundation of the modern Palestinian national identity, literally cooperated with the Nazis to a comical degree. The leader at the time, Amin al-Husseini, and his administration literally flew out to Germany and personally met with Hitler. There they both expressed praise and support for each other, and declared desire for cooperation to reach their mutual goals of defeating the British and genociding the Jews. Amin al-Husseini directly told Hitler that Jews shouldn’t get a national home, that they were natural allies in their fight against the Jews, and that Fascism is a righteous ideology. Hitler was so impressed that he called him the most important leader in the Middle East and an Aryan because he was white, blone, and had blue eyes. The thing is that muslims at home celebrated the new ties with the axis powers and cooperation between went through the roof. The Palestinian identity was quite literally founded on antisemitism.

      Do I need to keep going? I hope not. Keep in mind, this is all history. You can look all of this up yourself to verify.

      we may see a full scale war against Israel before their aims are achieved.

      We have already seen this play out at least three times. All of these wars were coalition wars provoked by the muslim Arabs seeking the full destruction of Israel, and every time Israel won.

      That’s my take on it, anyway. They won’t stop because they don’t think they can stop, due to how horrible they’ve been.

      What a bad take. The reason they’re still fighting is because they’re still being attacked.

      • Monument@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
        72·
        5 months ago

        Oooh. I attracted a 1-day old account that conveniently doesn’t know about U.S. statecraft toward the Middle East for the last 70 years, doesn’t know about the long history of arms transfers to Israel, doesn’t know about the Balfour Declaration, the Jewish terrorism against Britain and Palestine until Britain left the area, or the genocides that happened as soon as Britain stopped offering protection to the Palestinians. You conveniently seem to fail to understand geopolitics in any meaningful contexts.
        And then you “Source?” my (very well informed) opinions.

        lol. No. Don’t waste my time.

        • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
          21·
          5 months ago

          Lol imagine feeling so attacked by someone calling out and criticizing your blatantly made up and ignorant claims that you actually resort to a toddler level insult where you call me stupid, call yourself “well informed” (lmao), and then put yourself on the back for it as if you actually did anything more than clown yourself. I was right on the money, you don’t actually have any idea what you’re talking about. You just regurgitate the propaganda you consume on echo chambers like Lemmy, and then make up stuff to fill the gaps. But I agree, I won’t waste your time because that would mean I would be wasting my time on somebody who doesn’t actually bring anything of value. Now scurry back to your echo chamber before the big scary knowledge comes and destroys your ignorant worldviews. Shoo, go on then

          • Monument@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
            11·
            5 months ago

            Support your claims.

            Edit: With like, actual sources.

            And I didn’t call you stupid. I insinuated that your motives were suspect and that you are dishonest. But I am beginning to think you lack the ability to actually make supportable claims or debate people - which would probably mean … eh. *shrug*

            • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
              2·
              5 months ago

              8 hour old account with 42 comments…

              I really hope it’s a hasbara account working hard and not someone with such an unbelievable capacity for missing the point.

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
        42·
        5 months ago

        The Middle East isn’t divided by the US, it’s divided by its own history of imperialism, colonization, oppression and violence based on religious and ethnic lines accross the centuries. There’s really no incentive for the US keep the Middle East divided, not to mention that oil producing countries are already united through OPEC.

        Ahh yes. The Middle Easts own history. Clearly has nothing to do with French, British or US being the colonizing entities… And after all why would the US be interested in dividing a region that is connecting 3 continents and has the mos accessible of the main strategic ressources of the past two centuries.

        And of course all the plans of the US that specifically talked about destroying nations like Iraq and Syria and the invasion of Iraq to do exactly that… All coincidences! Who would be so mean to assume this to be part of larger strategies?

        • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world
          21·
          5 months ago

          This is such a brainless and oversimplified ideological point of view. If you actually bothered to look into the region, you would clearly see that there’s a lot more going on. For example:

          1. The Ottoman Empire genocided the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and a bunch of other minorities leaving them all to resent the Turks… especially since Turkey still officially denies that any of them even happened
          2. Turkey actively oppresses and squashes any attempt for Kurds to maintain their identity, let alone gain independence which leads them to hate the Turks. Just FYI, the Kurdish language, clothing, and culture was banned in Turkey until the 1980s.
          3. Turkey illegally occupies half of Cyprus under the pretext of “protecting the Turkish minorities”, and both Greece and Cyprus hate them for it because they’ve broken their treaties and are illegally occupying half of the country
          4. Syrians hate Turkey too because it invaded the north and still occupies parts of it
          5. The Turks hate Arabs and vice versa because Arabs view the Turks as colonizers turned heathens since they’re now secular and allow a bunch of things not allowed in islam, and the Turks view the Arabs as backwards religious fundamentalists who leech of them since there are millions Arab of refugees in Turkey
          6. Kuwait hates Iraq because it invaded in the 90s
          7. Iran and Iraq don’t like each other because of the Iran-Iraq war in the 80s
          8. The Iraqi Kurds hate the Arabs because Saddam Hussein genocided them
          9. The Sunni and Shia in Iraq hate each other because they’re different sects of the same religion, and oh they fought wars over it too
          10. Yemen, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon DESPISE Iran because it actively funds and arms terrorist militias that constantly terrorize them, steal their wealth, and keep their countries into unstable failed states
          11. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf countries hate Iran because they’re Shia and because they keep threatening their oil exports in the
          12. Saudi Arabia hates the Shia in Yemen (the Houthis)
          13. The Yemeni people hate Saudi Arabia because of the war they led against them
          14. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, and Bahrain all severed ties with Qatar in 2017 because it funds terrorist groups inside their borders and because it uses Al Jazeera to pump out propaganda against them. In the case of Saudi Arabia, the mutual hatred got so bad that the royal family actually proposed digging a moat around Qatar to turn it into an island
          15. All of the islamic countries in the Middle East hate Israel because it’s Jewish
          16. Egypt and Turkey don’t like each other because Turkey is trying to claim the EEZ of the eastern Mediterranean, some of which is Egypt’s
          17. Armenia and Azerbaijan hate each other because Azerbaijan denies the Armenian genocide, because on is Christian and the other is muslim, and because of a territorial dispute created by Stalin that they’ve been fighting over for the past 30 years.
          18. Georgia hates Armenia, despite both of them being Christian nations, because they supported Russia’s invasion of Georgia in 2008
          19. Kuwait hates Palestine because they supported Saddam Hussein’s invasion in the 90s, which led Kuwait to expel all 350,000 Palestinians from its territory
          20. Jordan hates Palestine because they tried to overthrow the government when they took them in as refugees. This series of events was so bad it became known as black September
          21. Syria doesn’t like Palestine because they tried to overthrow the government during the Syrian civil war
          22. Egypt doesn’t like Palestine because they used the Sinai to commit terrorist attacks and they tried to overthrow the government. It got so bad that they joined Israel in their blockade against Gaza
          23. Saudi Arabia and the UAE also don’t like Palestine because despite all the numerous military, economic, and political aid… their efforts blew up in their faces. The UAE ended up recognizing Israel and Saudi Arabia released a 3 part documentary featuring one of their top diplomats that went through the history of Saudi Arabia’s support for Palestine and how the Palestinian leaders were liers, cheaters, and backstabbers
          24. Georgia doesn’t like Turkey because of its Ottoman past
          25. All the caucuses countries hate Russia because of their genocides and imperialism
          26. Syria hates Israel because they occupy Golan Heights
          27. Lebanon hates Israel because they invaded to stomp out Hezbollah
          28. Israel doesn’t like any of it’s neighbors because they’re Arabs and they all supported Palestine
          29. Israel also doesn’t like Lebanon specifically because of Hezbollah
          30. Iran and Israel hate each other because of religious fundamentalism
          31. Iranian people, especially the minorities, HATE their government because it’s theocratic and their government hates them back because the people are secular
          32. Israel doesn’t like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, or Lebanon because they invaded it before
          33. Christians hate muslims because they’ve been persecuting them
          34. Kurds in Syria don’t like the Arabs because they also tried to suppress them
          35. Turkey and Israel have a love hate relationship based on Netanyahu’s and Erdogan’s mood swings.

          The list goes on and on. No matter how recent or how far back you go, this region has ALWAYS been unstable, violent, and tyrannical. This because it’s in the crossroads of 3 continents like you said, but also because of geography and culture that reinforces the same cycles. Western powers did play a role, but trying to blame all the division, violence, and hatred in that region on the West is just ignorant.

          • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
            11·
            5 months ago

            1…

            And Israel and the EU help Azerbaijan to continue ethnic cleansing of Armenians, in particular Israel by sending drones in exchange for Azerbaijani oil

            2…

            The Kurdish identity was deliberately squashed by the Western imperialists France and UK when they drew the borders after the fall of the Ottoman empire

            3…

            Turkey went into Cyprus when a western aided fascist Greek military junta government tried to take over Cyprus and make it part of Greece with ethnic cleansing against the Turks in Cyprus. Calling it an illegal occupation is again a western imperialist narrative ignoring the complicity in attempted ethnic cleansing or worse genocide by the Greek fascist military junta government of the time. In fact Turkey stepping in was pivotal to the fascist military junta falling apart and Greece returning to Democracy.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

            So already in your first three points you are showing either a lack of understanding, or deliberately downplaying the effects of western imperialist rule and its continuation into today. Armenians are allies of Palestine as they understand that they are victim of the same forces. In particular the Israel-Azerbaijan axis shows that it is not about religion, but about classic imperialist motives of ressources, power and money.