After a year online the free speech-focused instance ‘Burggit’ is shutting down. Among other motivations, the admins point to grievances with the Lemmy software as one of the main reasons for shutting down the instance. In a first post asking about migrating to Sharkey, one of the admins states:
This Lemmy instance is much harder to maintain due to the fact that I can’t tell what images get uploaded here, which means anyone can use this as a free image host for illegal shit, and the fact that there’s no user list that I can easily see. Moderation tools are nonexistent on here. It also eats up storage like crazy due to the fact that it rapidly caches images from scraped URLs and the few remaining instances that we still federate with. The software is downright frustrating to work with, and It feels less rewarding overall putting effort into this instance because it feels like we’re so isolated.
A few weeks later, in the post announcing that Burggit was shutting down, another admin says the same:
The amount of hoops that burger has to go to in order to bring you this site is ridiculous. To give you an idea of how bad this software is, there’s no easy way to check all the images uploaded to the site (such as through private messages). When the obvious concern of potential illegal imagery is brought up to lemmy devs, they shrug and say to plug in an expensive AI image checker to scan for illegal imagery. That response genuinely has me thinking that this is by design, and they want it to be like this. We can’t even easily look at the list of registered users without looking through the DB, absolute insanity.
The other thing is there’s no real way to manage storage properly in Lemmy, the storage caches every image ever uploaded to any instance forever.
Also the software is constantly breaking.
They also say that Kbin has many of the same problems, so I’m just curious to know if the admins of bigger Lemmy & Kbin instances feel the same way about these software.
Good riddance to burggit. Manny legitimate complaints but absolutely good riddance.
(instance admin here, but for a small one) woof well, for me, I agree, but I wouldn’t use that wording.
Lemmy for sure isn’t a plug and play site. Setting it up took leaps and bounds, learning way more about nginx than I ever really cared to, and figuring out documentation that was very clearly out of date. Very little logging or error messaging exists to help with that problem.
Very little errors exist at all, it’s very much a “happy path” project. That’s why we get constant spinners everywhere, because when an HTTP error occurs there’s no actual error message. (Come on guys, just add it to your standard HTTP messages, if statusCode < 200 || >= 300 then show a toast message).
But yeah, the moderation tools have to be the worst. Lemmy has an amazing development group that’s separate from the main developers who have patched together a good set of tools, from automods to CSAM and illegal scanning, huge props to them - but these issues are routinely ignored by the main devs. I was shocked, honestly shocked that when we were under CSAM attacks that there was not an immediate roundtable of the head devs to try to solve the problem officially. Here was a problem that 99% of countries would immediately and gladly throw us, the instance admins, in jail over and they just handwaved it away. In fact, I don’t know that there was ever an official post about it, or even that there are things coming to help with it.
I love Lemmy and being here, and the devs have done a great job at building this platform for us, but we’re at a critical point right now. It’s no longer software that is just fun side projects and building stuff that looks cool, it has some real issues now that it has a real userbase. I’m definitely one to say “But it’s FOSS, and other people can pick up and submit a PR” - but it also says something when the head devs just completely ignore a massively huge issue with it.
Bugs and caches and that sort of thing I can overlook. Those I can wait on and see them get smoothed out over time. Actual issues that could land me in jail or get the feds to beat down my door? Those I kind of expect a fast response.
So, I’ll say I’m extremely conflicted. I want to host lemmy long term, and I’m happy to bring the fediverse to a few more people, but the csam attacks really altered my view of the devs.
Edit - because my favorite manager said “Bring me solutions, not problems” a few things that would really help immediately -
- Integrate db0’s CSAM checker natively, more or less a plug and play option, or a checkbox. His checker sits at an endpoint. The admin page of lemmy could easily have you plop in the endpoint and it would start checking
- Have an image management portal, with capabilities to:
- Auto remove images after X time (to help with ballooning storage costs)
- Perma-delete images and users (maybe blurred too if the CSAM checker flagged it, so I don’t need eye bleach) (Edit again, 0.19.4 might have fixed this, I need to upgrade so I’ll see)
- Federating image purges, so one purge on one server will force purge it on everyone else’s
- ~~Disabling of caching other server’s images ~~ (Edit again, I see 0.19.4 just dropped which has this, so this is good). This way I’m only responsible for my own users.
- View images that are not related to a post (DM’d messages that I’m hosting, or people just uploading images to my site)
- Bring in a logging system into the UI itself, so I can keep tabs on the error logs. I can pipe them somewhere, but this would be a major plus as an admin
But yeah, the moderation tools have to be the worst. Lemmy has an amazing development group that’s separate from the main developers who have patched together a good set of tools, from automods to CSAM and illegal scanning, huge props to them - but these issues are routinely ignored by the main devs. I was shocked, honestly shocked that when we were under CSAM attacks that there was not an immediate roundtable of the head devs to try to solve the problem officially. Here was a problem that 99% of countries would immediately and gladly throw us, the instance admins, in jail over and they just handwaved it away. In fact, I don’t know that there was ever an official post about it, or even that there are things coming to help with it.
My impression at the time was that admins were handling the CSAM wave just fine with existing mod tools and through Matrix chats. A roundtable wouldnt have solved anything except make people feel good. Besides we still were extremely busy at the time to scale up Lemmy and resolve problems revealed by the huge amount of new users. Keep in mind that Lemmy is still at version 0.x which means that its not feature complete. So if something is missing that you find important, consider waiting a year or two and checking back then. Or get it implemented yourself, thats what open source is all about.
That said most of the features you mentioned have already been implemented, including a list of all locally uploaded images.
I was not handling it fine, it was generally chaotic, and in the Matrix chats I remember it being chaotic, for both attacks. Luckily by the second one we had db0’s tooling to help a bit more, but there still many of us who were exposed to the images. We lost a lot of instances during those two attacks from admins who justifiably didn’t want to take on the risk.
I completely understand how crazy it was, but the lack of response from you guys was disheartening, it really did make me wonder if I should continue hosting or if I should bail out. Ultimately, I decided to stay obviously, but had to do some hard extra steps, like reducing privacy and registering with the feds for CSAM.
So like I said, I’m torn. I respect you guys for everything you do, but that was a moment where all other development should have stopped to immediately address a real problem, and while you think a roundtable would have just been feel good, I think we could have kept a lot of instances online if it had been done. Assurances that yes, new changes are coming, and official suggestions like “Here are the endpoints to delete the images”, or nominating db0 or someone as the person in charge of the outbreak. It was honestly a scary time, and for us owners who accept a lot of risk, for many of them it was too much.
Anyway, I have a habitual case of foot in mouth disease, so it was immediately after posting that comment that I heard about 0.19.4, and immediately felt stupid. I tried it last night but I kept getting timeout errors and something about “Could not get user’s /inbox” or something, I’ll try 0.19.5 today. Thank you for bringing additional mod tools, they’ve been hugely needed. I know they’re not glamorous to make, but they keep the communities healthy and strong.
Edit: 0.19.5 also failed. I wrote up a github bug on it, until then I unfortunately have to stay on 0.19.3 https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4850
The entire time after the Reddit migration was extremely chaotic. I dont remember when exactly the CSAM attacks happened, but around that time we were already very exhausted from all the urgent work we had to do on scaling, patching security vulnerabilities and fixing countless bugs. I also dont remember receiving any requests from admins to help out with this. So if you notice something similar in the future, feel free to message me directly. Anyway we are only two people working full-time on Lemmy, and have lots of different tasks to take care of. So it gets very difficult to give everything the attention it deserves, and to prioritize things correctly.
I honestly think you peeps need to somehow invest in your communication strategy somehow. Such communication breakdowns is/was causing schisms in the lemmy community which is an extreme shame as that’s in turn driving away the same potential contributors that would help the software improve faster to cover these same points. I would argue that saying things like “we’re still in beta, come back in 2 years if you can’t handle the heat” is not doing you any favours. I know you are technically correct, but there’s no reason to phrase it like that, yanno? Not everyone interprets such statements the same way and for non-ASD/ADHD people, this can parse very hostile and confrontational, even if you honestly didn’t mean it to be read like that.
Apologies in advance for the unsolicited advice, but have you considered reaching our for some community outreach person to join your team? Such positions won’t necessarily fill themselves and you need to ask for it. But at this point I think it might significantly help the lemmy project avoid such drama.
How else would you say this? And who do you suggest reaching out to? Keep in mind that it would have to be a volunteer position as we dont have the funds to pay for it.
You could have volunteers working on the communication aspect. That doesn’t have to be a paid position.
I’ll let db0 suggest a better phrasing for the “we’re still in beta” part
Sure but its not so easy to find volunteers. Would you or db0 be willing to do this?
Dont forget the complete ignorance of gpdr. That shit will get you fucked over, and its not as simple to follow as it seems.
In fact, Im not 100% sure that federation works with gpdr, since you cant garantee all data will be deleted.
I’m not sure it’s that difficult to follow. If you offer a service in the EU, you are responsible for your server deleting personal data (or, even better, not even hosting it in the fist place!); you are not responsible for other people not deleting their copy of personal data.
But I’m not that well-informed in the actual legalese so my best understanding is the big issue is the EU’s definition of “provide service to the EU” more than anything else. They seem to think that just because your users might upload a local copy of a picture of someone from the EU, even if you yourself are not allowing connections from the EU, then you are serving to the EU. And with how nazi the EU has been going lately with stuff like ChatControl, the last thing I’d want as an instance owner is to be upheld to arbitrary boomers’ (lack of) understanding of technology.
there was a discussion about this same post before, I’ll just copy paste my comment…
That post complains about not being able to view/manage images hosted by your instance, but v0.19.4 already fixed that last week? So that kinda disproves them saying the Lemmy developers didn’t want it to be possible. Also the post complains about the amount of storage used by caching images but that was also fixed/improved in v0.19.4
I’d really love it if people stop saying “it’s by design” when they can’t point to any motivation for that design. When the quoted admin says “thinking this is by design” this is equivalent to saying “Lemmy developers prefer that there be no image moderation tools.”
Like, what. Why would they want that. They clearly don’t want that. They’re working on changing that.
It’s very hard for people to accept that there are other things that may need to be worked on before their requested fix/feature. Every big project has a huge backlog of issues/feature requests, you can’t do them all in 1 day or even 1 year. Especially with low funding lol.
Though Lemmy has funding for full-time developers.
And it’s not like other features get implemented in the meantime. Progress is really slow here, even compared to hobby projects.
Edit: Lol, thanks for downvoting.
Did you read the changes in 0.19.4? Those are only the highlights, there is also a full changelog linked. 0.19.0 before that had even more features. And I doubt you can show any hobby projects that have faster progress with only two devs.
Since I’m dabbling in AI at the moment: What about llama.cpp? Dude handles like 50 pull requests a week, coordinates everything and codes himself. And it’s really complicated stuff and not the only project. And I mean there is lots of Linux software I use, (web-development) frameworks, smarthome stuff and electronics projects that I participate in and I’m always fascinated by their pace and how they manage to do that in addition to a day-job?! And they regularly push new features… I’ve had contact with some, filed bugreports and sometimes the next day they solved my issues and pushed a new version.
With Lemmy, my UI bugreports from a year ago are still open and not fixed. And it feels like contributions and bugreports are more a burden to the devs here and not that welcome like I’m used to from other projects. And yeah, I’m glad the last release was a bit bigger. But I mean it took 5 months… And moderation tools are traditionally an issue here. I’m glad something gets implemented. But we’re still far from where we need to be. Same with the image handling and proxying.
I’m not sure what to make of this. Sure, software development ain’t easy. But every new release I check the changelog and usually it’s just some minor bugfixes. And twice a year a bigger release like this month with new features, yet the last bigger user-facing feature I can remember was instance blocking in december. And this is more or less adding the ability to hide posts and change how voting is displayed, if you’re just a user.
Edit: I appreciate the work, though. And I like the idea of the platform. It’s just that I’d like it to grow and flourish. But to me it seems we’re often taking baby steps. And in the meantime stuff breaks and admins complain they barely cope with everything with the tools they have.
I looked at some of the pull requests and most of them seem very small, only changing a couple of lines. Still impressive but not really comparable to implementing a new feature in Lemmy. For that we need to make changes to various different parts of the code (database, federation, api, js library, frontend), then test it and pass code review. All that takes a lot of work because we need to ensure that existing functionality doesnt break. In this way a web server like Lemmy has much higher standards because there should be no bugs at all. If your AI project has some bugs, users can easily roll back their local install to an earlier version.
Youre right about lemmy-ui, unfortunately it doesnt have enough contributors. I dont know why that is, you’d think a project written in a popular language like Typescript would easily find contributors.
Though Lemmy has funding for full-time developers.
barely, edited it to say low funding
I hope the plugin system will attract more contributors, especially since it supports a variety of languages
I’m not sure about the numbers but it should be like 6,600€ a month?! join-lemmy.org shows 3,656€ per month from donations, plus ~750€ a week they said in their last AMA from the NLnet fund.
I’m not sure if I’d consider that low… Sure it’s not much compared to the revenue of a commercial platform. But still, you can build something with like 2x40h weeks. (plus a community)
Maybe they already factored in the 3k from NLnet and it’s just 3.6k in total, I don’t really know. But they’re always talking about two full-time developers plus one more they’d like to pay… So that makes me think it’s probably 6.5k€. Maybe someone can fact-check it.
Our last NLnet funding round is from 2022 which is just getting completed now. At a total of 60.000€ over two devs and ~24 months thats around 1250€ a month. So about 3050€ per month which is quite low for a software developer. Additionally the NLnet payments are very irregular as they are not monthly but when specific new features are implemented. The number of 750€ a week is for estimating the payment for NLnet milestones, but a large part of our work cannot be funded by them. NLnet only funds development of new features, but we also need to spend a lot of time fixing bugs, reviewing pull requests, preparing releases etc.
well, kbin is somewhat defunct. mbin is under active development, and many of these things are on their radar. moderation tools are coming along, user list is not really an issue. they even got mfa workin!
these applications and the environments they are building are in their infancy. instance admins cannot expect a mature product, or that they wont need to get their fingers dirty to implement features they want. lemmy is at what, 0.19.4?
the image caching/filtering is good example of an ongoing concern 'verse-wide. as the lemmy devs pointed out, if this is a solid concern as an admin you would implement file scanning. if you absolutely want to use lemmy and need a user list, build it.
this shit is not turn-key
e. ive been running mbin at https://moist.catsweat.com almost a year
Lemmy is heavier on the cpu than for example mastodon or matrix are but a lot less on the harddrive. Its insane. I use matrix the most, then lemmy, then mastodon. Still, mastodon sucks hdd like crazy, matrix as well. Only lemmy is easy on the hdd.
Of course I‘m running private instances. You can never know why public instances go bonkers. Maybe someone is abusing it for other things.
Anyway, lemmy does have some moderation tools but I agree. They need work. You have to know a lot about linux, databases and have to figure out a lot of stuff if you have problems with lemmy. Thats not okay.
But as always with foss. If you run a public instance, you should accept donations and if they dont cover the costs so you can pay someone to make a fork for you that has what you need, you might be doing something wrong.
It would be interesting to investigate why Lemmy has high CPU usage. In principle it should be quite efficient as its written in Rust. Its also not doing anything particularly performance intensive, unless you are subscribed to lots of communities or have lots of users.
From other comments I read, the database seems to be the issue, not lemmy. Is uses postgres and that uses the resources. Lemmy itself is no problem.
I suppose there is still room for database optimization then, but its hard to find people who know how to do this.
Only the storage usage has been a problem for me, but that is much easier to handle now. I do wish there was some better documentation for exactly that.
Should there be something like a lemmy admin’s community for talking about the ins and outs of running a lemmy instance? Something like that over time can be some sort of band-aid for missing documentation (it’s searchable etc).
I’m aware that there’s the matrix room and a lemmy support community … but maybe just opening things up to any chat about hosting lemmy in one place could actually help (in part because you can easily search specifically within one community).
There is documentation, if anything is missing we definitely appreciate contributions.
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/administration/administration.html
When I started working on PieFed I was all enthusiastic about the idea of moderation tools. But when it came time to actually code that functionality it was like pulling teeth. Just. Sooo. Boring. It took weeks longer than it should have, for that reason. This was really surprising to me because I’m deeply passionate about moderation and ‘gardening’ a community.
That’s the thing about open source, people just do the fun stuff. There’s always some fun stuff to do which distracts from the boring-but-necessary.
Not just that its boring, mod tools also require a huge amount of work because you need to make changes across all parts of the code (database, api, federation and frontend).
