Is the respond of killing 3.5k+ civilian + countless injured + million displaced justified for the 1400 civilian killed + 200 hostage? Is the exchange rate of palestinian life to israeli life these day 2.5:1?
I’m curious on how people could go “it’s too cruel” when they read the news 1400 humans being brutally murdered but when they read the news about the killed civilian from the other side and also the constant terror and murder commited by the illegal settler in west bank they can make out all sort of justification to calm down their heart.
Benjamin Netanyahu and the IDF is truly a genius, they successfully dehumanise the Palestinians so people will defend them.
In reference to a settler murdering someone, even though you didn’t ask, my response is that they should be arrested and if guilty then they should be punished under Israeli law for murder. Doesn’t always happen. But it is what I would do.
But actually answer the question. You’re in power now. What do you do?
giving back west bank, withdraw all the illegal settler from there, pay reparation fee for the damage the illegal settler and IDF caused(for both physical, mental, and property), stop spying in others country, publicly apologise for the decades of atrocity the previous administration caused. In return for them to release the hostage, start deradicalize plan, and sign peace treaty with the backing of UN for long lasting peace within the region.
First a response then I’ll answer your question. Read up on the camp David accords with Clinton. The Israelis were offering like 91% of the land back the green line and trying to find some middle ground concerning Jerusalem. But especially read up about the 2004-05 withdrawal from Gaza. They did with Gaza what you are suggesting with the west bank. And it become a breeding ground for terrorist attacks. Originally the plan was Gaza first, as an olive branch, then the west bank, then further peace negotiations to establish firm borders. But the outcome with Gaza was horrific and all political capital was lost. And Hamas has stated it will not negotiate and will not accept peace deals negotiated by the PA. You cannot suggest things that have been tried and pretend that the past didn’t happen and that things will just work out. Israel has been there, done that.
So acknowledging the real world history of the situation, if I was in charge, then the goal is to change the playing field. Israel did this with Gaza before with the wall they are oft criticized for building. And it stopped all the suicide bombings that had been happening. So I’d have two goals. An even more secure border, probably talking a dmz area, and to wipe out as many known Hamas officials as I possibly can. Their power structure must be so disrupted that they it will take extended time for any organization to happen. This allows for other people (probably Fatah would be the goal) to replace them. Make it clear that my country is going nowhere and that the other side needs a new plan if they want security. After doing these things, then and only then, do we go back to the negotiating table. Do I like these things? No. But again history and my responsibilities. History tells us this can work. General Sherman. WWII with Japan. Is it a guarantee to work? No. But the status quo definitely does not work. And my responsibility is first to provide security for the people in my country. I would certainly take notes from ww2 concerning the rebuilding efforts, but that also required unconditional surrender from the Japanese. So long as there was peace, my government would be first in line to offer assistance (which was an established thing between the PA and Israel… But Hamas changed that. In fact it was their main platforms and why they were elected).
And Wikipedia tends to disagree with you. The issue is more complex and you cannot blame only one of the parties for the outcome.
So your solution is to drop an “atomic bomb” over Gaza in order to get their unconditional surrender? And ”atomic bomb" here is a metaphor. Did it cross your mind that WWII could have been avoided if the treatment of Germany wasn’t so unfair after the WWI and putting them to a corner, desperate people choose desperate solutions, and I strongly believe that if Gazans were treated better, Hamas would have never been elected.
Think about it. And your link with Japan is really terrible, as they had been subject to fire bombs, two atomic bombs, so don’t repeat past mistakes.
My solution is to remove Hamas from any authority. Let them be replaced with a more reasonable authority (Fatah was supposed to have a united government with them but Hamas wouldn’t actually do it). Stabilize and secure my country. And then try to help rebuild Gaza and negotiate firm borders with Palestine.
Now there are definitely people in the Israeli government who don’t believe it can and/or should happen. I know the history of Likud and Begin. I’m aware of the ideas of Revisionist Zionism and Jabotinsky (not really a fan btw). It’s safe to say that if I had been around at the time I definitely would’ve been with the lefty socialist Jews, not with the right wingers. Although even Bibi signed on to Oslo iirc.
I understand that the situation is fucked. But when you are in a fucked situation, you have to deal with it given the constraints of it being fucked. I understand some people on both sides may have bad intentions. But Hamas is platformed as opposed to peace. With Israel, that situation is not the same. Just as the Gaetz doesn’t represent the entire US government, neither does ben Gvir. Israel is a developed state with a secular government and the majority are not out to take over all of Palestine.
Honestly the big difference in opinion here lies in the fact that a lot of people here who are against Israel and screaming genocide really just don’t say what they actually think. That they think Jews have no right to be in Israel and that they should pick up and leave. They know nothing about the history of the region and they just parrot the same shit.
People oppose your government and their policies against Palestinians. People oppose illegal settlements and forceful displacement of people. People oppose Gazans being treated like second class human beings. People oppose human rights violations, carpet bombings entire residential neighbourhoods, and so much more.
Likudis complicit with Hamas, they have never looked for a peaceful solution. Instead they were continuously antagonizing Palestinians. Their rule is fuelled by the hatred for Palestinians by the fear. For that they need to put Palestinians into a corner which they systematically do so that they can generalise the whole population and portray them as blood seeking.
And funnily enough Hamas also needs Likud to survive. They need them for the same reason.
Hamas’ military wing in Gaza is around 30K people. Compare that to 2.3Mln. Mostly from uneducated boys whose whole life were living in pretty shitty conditions. 80% of the population of Gaza depends on humanitarian aid. You can’t even fathom what it’s like living there. And I am sure if you were on the other side of the fence you would have had a completely different mindset.
And you know what the most surprising thing for me is, that Jews as a population have been oppressed during the years so much, and yet you are fine with your government to do exactly that to another population.
This only comes to prove that humanity is dead! We as species won’t survive with this attitude. That history taught us nothing!
They did that. In Gaza. And it went really poorly if you haven’t noticed. Which is actually why settlement in the West Bank started getting much stronger support within the government and from the population at large. So now you’re fighting the war on two fronts?
Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa. Also, it’s not typically the Israeli government that does this. Mostly the Haredi. So how will you do this? And what will occur when you come up with the anti-raiding plan?
Does any of this stop Hamas from attacking the country you’re supposed to be protecting?
You’re an idiot, stop all settlers not just some of them. Gaza and the west bank. If the Israeli government has the power to level Gaza, they have the power reign in the “haredi”. What in the world do you mean by:
Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa
You mean the second-most holy place in Islam?
You’ve very clearly already made up your mind, why ask so many pointed questions if you’re not interested in understanding any other POV?
I’m an idiot. For knowing that the plan was to leave Gaza entirely, then leave the West bank with some settlements being dismantled and some to be dealt with in future negotiations. But the catastrophe that was the Gaza withdrawal halted that plan entirely.
And third holiest site in Islam. But the temple mount which Jews are kept from visiting most of the time, is the holiest site in Judaism. Which is why I said don’t pretend it is only al aqsa.
I’m clearly a supporter of Israel. But I try to understand multiple sides. Doesn’t mean I have to think every side is right. Concerning the temple mount and al aqsa, I would prefer both groups get along and share. I don’t like Bibi and loathe ben Gvir. And while I absolutely do think continuing ahead with a withdrawal plan for west bank would’ve made Israel less safe, I do wish they hadn’t increased settlements.
Seriously how would you feel if someone tomorrow comes to your house and kicks you out. Then puts you in an open air prison, restricts your right of movement immensely, treats you like a second class human being. Are you really so naïve?
If you think that is an adequate description of the history of the area then your problem is clearly a total lack of education or research on the topic.
First, we need a starting point. At what point in history should we consider the people living in the region as indigenous? Concerning the open air prison, that’s mostly used in reference to Gaza. So did Israel put them there or are they indigenous? Also, they have a border with Egypt too. Why is that border not working out?
I’m not naive. I am fully aware that the entire region has a very complicated history. One that you can’t distill into a couple of lazy catch phrases. And there is a mix of good and bad things for everyone involved. You say Israel treats then as second class. Have you ever read the Hamas charter? Especially the pre 2017 charter. See what it says about women, Jews, religion. See what it implies about LGBT rights.
You call me naive. But, ask yourself, what history do you know of the region. And what are things you’re just parroting?
Is the respond of killing 3.5k+ civilian + countless injured + million displaced justified for the 1400 civilian killed + 200 hostage? Is the exchange rate of palestinian life to israeli life these day 2.5:1?
I’m curious on how people could go “it’s too cruel” when they read the news 1400 humans being brutally murdered but when they read the news about the killed civilian from the other side and also the constant terror and murder commited by the illegal settler in west bank they can make out all sort of justification to calm down their heart.
Benjamin Netanyahu and the IDF is truly a genius, they successfully dehumanise the Palestinians so people will defend them.
You didn’t answer the question.
In reference to a settler murdering someone, even though you didn’t ask, my response is that they should be arrested and if guilty then they should be punished under Israeli law for murder. Doesn’t always happen. But it is what I would do.
But actually answer the question. You’re in power now. What do you do?
giving back west bank, withdraw all the illegal settler from there, pay reparation fee for the damage the illegal settler and IDF caused(for both physical, mental, and property), stop spying in others country, publicly apologise for the decades of atrocity the previous administration caused. In return for them to release the hostage, start deradicalize plan, and sign peace treaty with the backing of UN for long lasting peace within the region.
What would YOU do if you’re in power?
First a response then I’ll answer your question. Read up on the camp David accords with Clinton. The Israelis were offering like 91% of the land back the green line and trying to find some middle ground concerning Jerusalem. But especially read up about the 2004-05 withdrawal from Gaza. They did with Gaza what you are suggesting with the west bank. And it become a breeding ground for terrorist attacks. Originally the plan was Gaza first, as an olive branch, then the west bank, then further peace negotiations to establish firm borders. But the outcome with Gaza was horrific and all political capital was lost. And Hamas has stated it will not negotiate and will not accept peace deals negotiated by the PA. You cannot suggest things that have been tried and pretend that the past didn’t happen and that things will just work out. Israel has been there, done that.
So acknowledging the real world history of the situation, if I was in charge, then the goal is to change the playing field. Israel did this with Gaza before with the wall they are oft criticized for building. And it stopped all the suicide bombings that had been happening. So I’d have two goals. An even more secure border, probably talking a dmz area, and to wipe out as many known Hamas officials as I possibly can. Their power structure must be so disrupted that they it will take extended time for any organization to happen. This allows for other people (probably Fatah would be the goal) to replace them. Make it clear that my country is going nowhere and that the other side needs a new plan if they want security. After doing these things, then and only then, do we go back to the negotiating table. Do I like these things? No. But again history and my responsibilities. History tells us this can work. General Sherman. WWII with Japan. Is it a guarantee to work? No. But the status quo definitely does not work. And my responsibility is first to provide security for the people in my country. I would certainly take notes from ww2 concerning the rebuilding efforts, but that also required unconditional surrender from the Japanese. So long as there was peace, my government would be first in line to offer assistance (which was an established thing between the PA and Israel… But Hamas changed that. In fact it was their main platforms and why they were elected).
And Wikipedia tends to disagree with you. The issue is more complex and you cannot blame only one of the parties for the outcome.
So your solution is to drop an “atomic bomb” over Gaza in order to get their unconditional surrender? And ”atomic bomb" here is a metaphor. Did it cross your mind that WWII could have been avoided if the treatment of Germany wasn’t so unfair after the WWI and putting them to a corner, desperate people choose desperate solutions, and I strongly believe that if Gazans were treated better, Hamas would have never been elected.
Think about it. And your link with Japan is really terrible, as they had been subject to fire bombs, two atomic bombs, so don’t repeat past mistakes.
My solution is to remove Hamas from any authority. Let them be replaced with a more reasonable authority (Fatah was supposed to have a united government with them but Hamas wouldn’t actually do it). Stabilize and secure my country. And then try to help rebuild Gaza and negotiate firm borders with Palestine.
Now there are definitely people in the Israeli government who don’t believe it can and/or should happen. I know the history of Likud and Begin. I’m aware of the ideas of Revisionist Zionism and Jabotinsky (not really a fan btw). It’s safe to say that if I had been around at the time I definitely would’ve been with the lefty socialist Jews, not with the right wingers. Although even Bibi signed on to Oslo iirc.
I understand that the situation is fucked. But when you are in a fucked situation, you have to deal with it given the constraints of it being fucked. I understand some people on both sides may have bad intentions. But Hamas is platformed as opposed to peace. With Israel, that situation is not the same. Just as the Gaetz doesn’t represent the entire US government, neither does ben Gvir. Israel is a developed state with a secular government and the majority are not out to take over all of Palestine.
Honestly the big difference in opinion here lies in the fact that a lot of people here who are against Israel and screaming genocide really just don’t say what they actually think. That they think Jews have no right to be in Israel and that they should pick up and leave. They know nothing about the history of the region and they just parrot the same shit.
People oppose your government and their policies against Palestinians. People oppose illegal settlements and forceful displacement of people. People oppose Gazans being treated like second class human beings. People oppose human rights violations, carpet bombings entire residential neighbourhoods, and so much more.
Likudis complicit with Hamas, they have never looked for a peaceful solution. Instead they were continuously antagonizing Palestinians. Their rule is fuelled by the hatred for Palestinians by the fear. For that they need to put Palestinians into a corner which they systematically do so that they can generalise the whole population and portray them as blood seeking.
And funnily enough Hamas also needs Likud to survive. They need them for the same reason.
Hamas’ military wing in Gaza is around 30K people. Compare that to 2.3Mln. Mostly from uneducated boys whose whole life were living in pretty shitty conditions. 80% of the population of Gaza depends on humanitarian aid. You can’t even fathom what it’s like living there. And I am sure if you were on the other side of the fence you would have had a completely different mindset.
And you know what the most surprising thing for me is, that Jews as a population have been oppressed during the years so much, and yet you are fine with your government to do exactly that to another population.
This only comes to prove that humanity is dead! We as species won’t survive with this attitude. That history taught us nothing!
Stop settlements, then expel the settlers
Stop raiding Al-Aqsa
That alone would be a definitive improvement
They did that. In Gaza. And it went really poorly if you haven’t noticed. Which is actually why settlement in the West Bank started getting much stronger support within the government and from the population at large. So now you’re fighting the war on two fronts?
Don’t pretend like it’s only Al-Aqsa. Also, it’s not typically the Israeli government that does this. Mostly the Haredi. So how will you do this? And what will occur when you come up with the anti-raiding plan?
Does any of this stop Hamas from attacking the country you’re supposed to be protecting?
So what have you accomplished?
You’re an idiot, stop all settlers not just some of them. Gaza and the west bank. If the Israeli government has the power to level Gaza, they have the power reign in the “haredi”. What in the world do you mean by:
You mean the second-most holy place in Islam?
You’ve very clearly already made up your mind, why ask so many pointed questions if you’re not interested in understanding any other POV?
I’m an idiot. For knowing that the plan was to leave Gaza entirely, then leave the West bank with some settlements being dismantled and some to be dealt with in future negotiations. But the catastrophe that was the Gaza withdrawal halted that plan entirely.
And third holiest site in Islam. But the temple mount which Jews are kept from visiting most of the time, is the holiest site in Judaism. Which is why I said don’t pretend it is only al aqsa.
I’m clearly a supporter of Israel. But I try to understand multiple sides. Doesn’t mean I have to think every side is right. Concerning the temple mount and al aqsa, I would prefer both groups get along and share. I don’t like Bibi and loathe ben Gvir. And while I absolutely do think continuing ahead with a withdrawal plan for west bank would’ve made Israel less safe, I do wish they hadn’t increased settlements.
Seriously how would you feel if someone tomorrow comes to your house and kicks you out. Then puts you in an open air prison, restricts your right of movement immensely, treats you like a second class human being. Are you really so naïve?
If you think that is an adequate description of the history of the area then your problem is clearly a total lack of education or research on the topic.
First, we need a starting point. At what point in history should we consider the people living in the region as indigenous? Concerning the open air prison, that’s mostly used in reference to Gaza. So did Israel put them there or are they indigenous? Also, they have a border with Egypt too. Why is that border not working out?
I’m not naive. I am fully aware that the entire region has a very complicated history. One that you can’t distill into a couple of lazy catch phrases. And there is a mix of good and bad things for everyone involved. You say Israel treats then as second class. Have you ever read the Hamas charter? Especially the pre 2017 charter. See what it says about women, Jews, religion. See what it implies about LGBT rights.
You call me naive. But, ask yourself, what history do you know of the region. And what are things you’re just parroting?