This is what I don’t get here. Why the hell do people interpret this as if it’s spreading Israeli propaganda?
We know Hamas killed substantial number of innocent people and are keeping hostages.
We know these hostages are kept somewhere in Gaza.
We know Israel is bombing the shit out of Gaza, actively destroying civilian infrastructure.
What we learn from this is that Israel has indeed killed hostages in their indiscriminate bombing, that Hamas seem to be keeping hostages alive when they are not killed by Israeli bombs, and that being held hostage by Hamas in Gaza is still an awful situation to be in.
If this makes Hamas look bad it’s because they are bad.
If you think it makes Israel look good you’re sick in the head - this is triggered by them intentionally bombing Gaza until there’s nothing left.
If you’re upset that it makes a Jewish person look human then fuck right off you worthless piece of shit.
I have to admit I’ve had this approach taking to Israelites for a while - I never felt comfortable in a conversation before having some sort of an indication of their political leaning. Israelites seem to often have a way of talking about things without talking about things, which usually makes it clear pretty quickly where they stand. I guess they also often feel a need to place themselves.
As for Jewish people living outside of Israel, I think the fact that they’ve all had a standing invitation to move to Israel and opted not to make use of it speaks for itself. Sure there are Bibi supporters, but that goes for Christians as well.
Still I see where you’re coming from of course. And I find it freaking terrifying to be honest.
The thing for me is I wanted to become a dual citizen because hey Israel is where my people are from why wouldn’t I want to but I was much younger and as I grew up I felt felt drive to do so. At first it was because I’m a pacifist and refused to join any military. Now I’m of age I can dodge that but I see what the country is doing and how could I in good conscience want to be a part of that?
So I’ll be a Jew and I’ll speak out against tyranny as I have and thus I speak out against the actions of the Israeli military and government. I’m not a fan of how Hamas acted before the start of this genocide but no matter how much I didn’t like that I can’t say Israel’s response is in any way justifiable. This is a slaughter of innocents and that is not Judaism as I know it. This is not what God would want us to do.
I think it’s not so difficult to understand the appeal, of course for those deeply religious who long back to Zion, but also to those who just long for a home country. I know old secular Jews who, before all this bullshit, was considering moving to Tel Aviv for their retirement because it felt more like home to them then the US, despite being American all their lives and despite being politically progressive and very much not on the Bibi side of things.
It’s a complicated situation now - on one hand I think it’s crucial that Jews should not feel the need to be apologetic or to constantly have to emphasize that they don’t represent a government they have nothing to do with. If that becomes the standard we’re already lost. On the other hand, people might need to hear it in order to understand Netanyahu is not some supreme leader of the unified Jews of the world, as too many people seem eager to believe.
Netanyahu is not some supreme leader of the unified Jews of the world
No, but he represents the political will and direction of politics in Israel. Far right parties dominate the political landscape in Israel, and Israeli political interests and money (which, ironically, is often coming from the US) is used to influence politics in the US, like passage of anti-BDS laws in nearly every state in the US.
I feel like that lends some credibility to Sab’s point.
They said unified Jews of the world and you’ve said politics in Israel not even necessarily Jews but of Israel.
Way too often do these two things get confused as one and the same. Israel doesn’t help at all with this either so it’s frustrating to have someone implying they represent me out there doing things I certainly don’t agree with.
Honestly it would be like if Trump tried to imply he was doing what white people around the world wanted and I’m sure we all know that can’t be 100% honest.
I don’t disagree with his point about Netanyahu not being the voice for Jews in the US. Most Jews in the US are Reform, which is a pretty liberal interpretation of the religion. Even the Conservative sects of Judaism are pretty liberal, relatively speaking. The Orthodox, Hasidim, and the ultra-Orthodox sects are a tiny fraction of Jews in the US, but they exert tremendous political power in Israel. And because Israel has such an influence in US politics, the very conservative Jews–again, largely in Israel–exert outsized influence in US politics.
At least we can now see more broadly who is and isn’t okay with what Israel’s government does. Not that this is exclusive to Bibi, the whole settler garbage has been going on for decades too and Israeli nationalism was also rising for quite some time before him.
This is what I don’t get here. Why the hell do people interpret this as if it’s spreading Israeli propaganda?
We know Hamas killed substantial number of innocent people and are keeping hostages.
We know these hostages are kept somewhere in Gaza.
We know Israel is bombing the shit out of Gaza, actively destroying civilian infrastructure.
What we learn from this is that Israel has indeed killed hostages in their indiscriminate bombing, that Hamas seem to be keeping hostages alive when they are not killed by Israeli bombs, and that being held hostage by Hamas in Gaza is still an awful situation to be in.
If this makes Hamas look bad it’s because they are bad.
If you think it makes Israel look good you’re sick in the head - this is triggered by them intentionally bombing Gaza until there’s nothing left.
If you’re upset that it makes a Jewish person look human then fuck right off you worthless piece of shit.
I’m upset because I’m Jewish and now I have to use a disclaimer “but fuck bibi”
I have to admit I’ve had this approach taking to Israelites for a while - I never felt comfortable in a conversation before having some sort of an indication of their political leaning. Israelites seem to often have a way of talking about things without talking about things, which usually makes it clear pretty quickly where they stand. I guess they also often feel a need to place themselves.
As for Jewish people living outside of Israel, I think the fact that they’ve all had a standing invitation to move to Israel and opted not to make use of it speaks for itself. Sure there are Bibi supporters, but that goes for Christians as well.
Still I see where you’re coming from of course. And I find it freaking terrifying to be honest.
The thing for me is I wanted to become a dual citizen because hey Israel is where my people are from why wouldn’t I want to but I was much younger and as I grew up I felt felt drive to do so. At first it was because I’m a pacifist and refused to join any military. Now I’m of age I can dodge that but I see what the country is doing and how could I in good conscience want to be a part of that?
So I’ll be a Jew and I’ll speak out against tyranny as I have and thus I speak out against the actions of the Israeli military and government. I’m not a fan of how Hamas acted before the start of this genocide but no matter how much I didn’t like that I can’t say Israel’s response is in any way justifiable. This is a slaughter of innocents and that is not Judaism as I know it. This is not what God would want us to do.
I think it’s not so difficult to understand the appeal, of course for those deeply religious who long back to Zion, but also to those who just long for a home country. I know old secular Jews who, before all this bullshit, was considering moving to Tel Aviv for their retirement because it felt more like home to them then the US, despite being American all their lives and despite being politically progressive and very much not on the Bibi side of things.
It’s a complicated situation now - on one hand I think it’s crucial that Jews should not feel the need to be apologetic or to constantly have to emphasize that they don’t represent a government they have nothing to do with. If that becomes the standard we’re already lost. On the other hand, people might need to hear it in order to understand Netanyahu is not some supreme leader of the unified Jews of the world, as too many people seem eager to believe.
No, but he represents the political will and direction of politics in Israel. Far right parties dominate the political landscape in Israel, and Israeli political interests and money (which, ironically, is often coming from the US) is used to influence politics in the US, like passage of anti-BDS laws in nearly every state in the US.
I feel like that lends some credibility to Sab’s point.
They said unified Jews of the world and you’ve said politics in Israel not even necessarily Jews but of Israel.
Way too often do these two things get confused as one and the same. Israel doesn’t help at all with this either so it’s frustrating to have someone implying they represent me out there doing things I certainly don’t agree with.
Honestly it would be like if Trump tried to imply he was doing what white people around the world wanted and I’m sure we all know that can’t be 100% honest.
I don’t disagree with his point about Netanyahu not being the voice for Jews in the US. Most Jews in the US are Reform, which is a pretty liberal interpretation of the religion. Even the Conservative sects of Judaism are pretty liberal, relatively speaking. The Orthodox, Hasidim, and the ultra-Orthodox sects are a tiny fraction of Jews in the US, but they exert tremendous political power in Israel. And because Israel has such an influence in US politics, the very conservative Jews–again, largely in Israel–exert outsized influence in US politics.
At least we can now see more broadly who is and isn’t okay with what Israel’s government does. Not that this is exclusive to Bibi, the whole settler garbage has been going on for decades too and Israeli nationalism was also rising for quite some time before him.