I can see that interpretation, but I would point out that this person is talking about a narrow time in history and not necessarily all of human evolution or even all of human experience for that time. Further, sexual desire isn’t exactly tied to reproduction - reproduction can be intentional or spontaneous. Love is an enduring human trait.
Second, I think it’s more the implication that women given access to birth control and abortions only choose to have 0-3 kids on average, so we can perhaps extrapolate that many women in the past would’ve chosen the same but couldn’t. Why? Well, no birth control and spousal rape was literally legal until the 90s. It’s not that they never wanted ANY kids, it’s that given choice, they have less kids on average overwhelmingly for decades across class, nationality, etc. Women are typically concerned about the pain and danger of pregnancy and child birth; having enough time for their kids; financial worries relating to birth and childrearing; and whether their kid will have a good future.
Second, I think it’s more the implication that women given access to birth control and abortions only choose to have 0-3 kids on average, so we can perhaps extrapolate that many women in the past would’ve chosen the same but couldn’t. Why? Well, no birth control and spousal rape was literally legal until the 90s.
The second half of that is literally my point. Spousal rape was normal for most of modern human history, and the one time it isn’t we drop below replacement rate. Now we don’t have the controls to measure how much birth control played into that on its own, but it’s at least possible that the human race relied on spousal rape to perpetuate itself
Spousal rape still happens, most rape happens without consequence. It’s that women have access to birth control that allows them to control how many kids they have.
The reason replacement level is down is because birth control (eg levongestrol) was invented and became in use in the 70s, with global advances in human rights and better financial equity in many places. Since then, the average person has gotten poorer and poorer, it’s harder to afford a home, etc, because income inequality has increased and ownership has been stolen from us transaction by transaction.
Look again at my reasons listed for why women do and don’t choose to have kids. One of them is financial reasons.
While I think conjugal rape and old concepts that made women feel like they had to have sex with their husband are surely for something, I feel that even if you had a society without birth control and where women were protected from conjugal rape and felt free not to have sex with their husband, you’d still have a much higher birth rate than today, simply because women like to have sex, have sexual needs, and many would willingly have sex, even when knowing that would lead to yet another pregnancy and the risk of death.
Also for labor, not denying this either.
And support in old age, I think that went into the calculations too.
? Women have long had methods of abortion via plants. I myself know of several. Further, condoms made from animal parts and nonpenetratice sex are a thing. Women have lesbian sex. Sexual pleasure and arousal isn’t per se related to procreation - this is a typically Christian belief (that guilt trips people into sexual activity that produces babies) but not actually based in sexual reality.
If sexual arousal was strictly related to reproduction, then gay people would never be sexually aroused by each other as many gay couples can’t procreate with each other. But yet they exist. Because sexual arousal, while driven by evolution, isn’t related to reproduction unless that person has a kink for reproduction.
No, women do not have sex if they think it or pregnancy will kill them.
Women have long had methods of abortion via plants.
I suspect they are less effective or less safe than those offered by modern medicine.
condoms made from animal parts
I doubt the convenience or effectiveness was the same. Plus, I did say I was referrin to a society without birth control.
nonpenetratice sex are a thing
Yes, and I expect many women would be content with only that. But I’ve never had a partner who was content only or even mainly with that. They want the dick. So, I don’t believe that would work well in avoidsing births for a lot of women.
Women have lesbian sex
Of course. But that’s not a solution for the wide majority of women who are not into women.
Sexual pleasure and arousal isn’t per se related to procreation
I never said it was.
No, women do not have sex if they think it or pregnancy will kill them.
Right, but we are talking about taking those in the past, not the present. So the women at the time were comparing how safe these abortifacients are versus pregnancy and childbirth and possible forced proximity to the father.
We’ve had condoms a long time. No, they were not as efficient.
No offense, but you probably attract and demand a certain kind of sex. Sex is extremely varied. A lot of women like dick, but I know of many women who like oral. Either way, whatever some women enjoy with sex doesn’t mean they would engage in that if it risked their life and they could just be fingered or use a dildo (also a lot of ancient dildos). A lot of women are perfectly satisfied masturbating and not having a partner at all. The reason we invented modern methods is because people have been demanding its development.
And pulling out or finishing with oral after penetrative sex can be considered akin to birth control, while also not perfect, it’s better than nothing especially in ancient times.
So when is this hypothetical society except in Christian nirvana sexual fantasy?
You’ve had sex with women in modern times with access to birth control, so lucky you, you get to have more penetrative sex. If it was going to kill her, like in ancient times, you’d probably both do other stuff if you cared about her. Or masturbate. People aren’t entitled to sex.
The point is that lesbian sex is often nonpenetrative and those women in lesbian relationships report higher sexual satisfaction and more orgasms.
Back then, women would’ve known someone (friend, cousin, sister, aunt) who died in childbirth and would have taken it seriously as a risk. Just like we take driving seriously today because it carries a risk of harm, so we wear seatbelts and have airbags. We decided these were a good idea due to the history of carriages and cars, and gave up some freedom and comfort so we could increase health outcomes. Like with modern birth control.
I can see that interpretation, but I would point out that this person is talking about a narrow time in history and not necessarily all of human evolution or even all of human experience for that time. Further, sexual desire isn’t exactly tied to reproduction - reproduction can be intentional or spontaneous. Love is an enduring human trait.
Second, I think it’s more the implication that women given access to birth control and abortions only choose to have 0-3 kids on average, so we can perhaps extrapolate that many women in the past would’ve chosen the same but couldn’t. Why? Well, no birth control and spousal rape was literally legal until the 90s. It’s not that they never wanted ANY kids, it’s that given choice, they have less kids on average overwhelmingly for decades across class, nationality, etc. Women are typically concerned about the pain and danger of pregnancy and child birth; having enough time for their kids; financial worries relating to birth and childrearing; and whether their kid will have a good future.
Still, I will avoid posting it again.
Unrelated Image for fun, Blessed Are the MeekThe second half of that is literally my point. Spousal rape was normal for most of modern human history, and the one time it isn’t we drop below replacement rate. Now we don’t have the controls to measure how much birth control played into that on its own, but it’s at least possible that the human race relied on spousal rape to perpetuate itself
Spousal rape still happens, most rape happens without consequence. It’s that women have access to birth control that allows them to control how many kids they have.
The reason replacement level is down is because birth control (eg levongestrol) was invented and became in use in the 70s, with global advances in human rights and better financial equity in many places. Since then, the average person has gotten poorer and poorer, it’s harder to afford a home, etc, because income inequality has increased and ownership has been stolen from us transaction by transaction.
Look again at my reasons listed for why women do and don’t choose to have kids. One of them is financial reasons.
While I think conjugal rape and old concepts that made women feel like they had to have sex with their husband are surely for something, I feel that even if you had a society without birth control and where women were protected from conjugal rape and felt free not to have sex with their husband, you’d still have a much higher birth rate than today, simply because women like to have sex, have sexual needs, and many would willingly have sex, even when knowing that would lead to yet another pregnancy and the risk of death.
Also for labor, not denying this either.
And support in old age, I think that went into the calculations too.
? Women have long had methods of abortion via plants. I myself know of several. Further, condoms made from animal parts and nonpenetratice sex are a thing. Women have lesbian sex. Sexual pleasure and arousal isn’t per se related to procreation - this is a typically Christian belief (that guilt trips people into sexual activity that produces babies) but not actually based in sexual reality.
If sexual arousal was strictly related to reproduction, then gay people would never be sexually aroused by each other as many gay couples can’t procreate with each other. But yet they exist. Because sexual arousal, while driven by evolution, isn’t related to reproduction unless that person has a kink for reproduction.
No, women do not have sex if they think it or pregnancy will kill them.
Unrelated Image for fun, Blessed Are the MeekI suspect they are less effective or less safe than those offered by modern medicine.
I doubt the convenience or effectiveness was the same. Plus, I did say I was referrin to a society without birth control.
Yes, and I expect many women would be content with only that. But I’ve never had a partner who was content only or even mainly with that. They want the dick. So, I don’t believe that would work well in avoidsing births for a lot of women.
Of course. But that’s not a solution for the wide majority of women who are not into women.
I never said it was.
Of course not, not when it’s a certainty.
Right, but we are talking about taking those in the past, not the present. So the women at the time were comparing how safe these abortifacients are versus pregnancy and childbirth and possible forced proximity to the father.
https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/admire-the-3000-year-old-condom-of-the-egyptian-pharaoh-tutankhamun-archaeologists-are-amazed
We’ve had condoms a long time. No, they were not as efficient.
No offense, but you probably attract and demand a certain kind of sex. Sex is extremely varied. A lot of women like dick, but I know of many women who like oral. Either way, whatever some women enjoy with sex doesn’t mean they would engage in that if it risked their life and they could just be fingered or use a dildo (also a lot of ancient dildos). A lot of women are perfectly satisfied masturbating and not having a partner at all. The reason we invented modern methods is because people have been demanding its development.
And pulling out or finishing with oral after penetrative sex can be considered akin to birth control, while also not perfect, it’s better than nothing especially in ancient times.
So when is this hypothetical society except in Christian nirvana sexual fantasy?
You’ve had sex with women in modern times with access to birth control, so lucky you, you get to have more penetrative sex. If it was going to kill her, like in ancient times, you’d probably both do other stuff if you cared about her. Or masturbate. People aren’t entitled to sex.
The point is that lesbian sex is often nonpenetrative and those women in lesbian relationships report higher sexual satisfaction and more orgasms.
Back then, women would’ve known someone (friend, cousin, sister, aunt) who died in childbirth and would have taken it seriously as a risk. Just like we take driving seriously today because it carries a risk of harm, so we wear seatbelts and have airbags. We decided these were a good idea due to the history of carriages and cars, and gave up some freedom and comfort so we could increase health outcomes. Like with modern birth control.
Eg, 20th century postcard advocating for birth control and freedom of choice: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Victorian_Postcard_-_woman_hitting_stork_with_parasol.jpg
Unrelated Image for fun, Blessed Are the Meek